Today on the podcast we are joined by Robin Lim (M.Div. ’23) and Mark Sayers. Rob and Mark became friends following the Asbury Outpouring, which began in February 2023. We talk about their individual experiences related to the Outpouring and what the worldwide impact has been. Mark tells personal stories of seeing profound movements of God at his church in Melbourne and Rob shares his experience at Asbury during the Outpouring and being part of a group from Asbury that traveled to Australia and spoke about their experiences.
*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.
Mark Sayers
Senior Leader of Red Church in Melbourne, Australia
Mark is the senior leader of Red Church in Melbourne, Australia. He is passionate about spiritual renewal and the future of the church. Mark is the author of a number of books including Strange Days and Reappearing Church. Mark lives in Melbourne with his wife, Trudi, his daughter, Grace, and twin boys, Hudson and Billy.
Robin Lim
Assistant Professor of Business. Strategic Initiatives and Partnerships Director.
Robin is an international banking leader and passionate educator focused on empowering future generations. Formerly Global Head of Home Lending at a major bank, he has extensive corporate experience and serves on the World Methodist Council, representing 80 million globally.
Robin co-founded MATES for Change, promoting multicultural social entrepreneurship, and is a pastor in the Chinese Methodist Church of Australia. He holds degrees in commerce, IT, and a Master of Divinity from Asbury Seminary. Robin is married to Ruth and they have four sons: Jared, Noah and twins Jude and Benji.
Wes Wilcox, host of Thrive with Asbury Seminary
Wes is a worship leader, artist and podcast host. He loves talking with people about their passions and what helps them thrive. When he is not drawing or playing music, he is likely relaxing with his best friend and wife, Heidi, and their dog Barney.
Show Notes
Transcript
Wes: Welcome to Thrive with Asbury Seminary. I’m your host, Wes Wilcox, and we’ve got a great show for you today. My guests are Rob Lim and Mark Sayers. Rob graduated from Asbury Seminary in 2023 with an M. Div. and is an assistant professor of business at Asbury university, as well as their Strategic Initiatives and Partnerships Director. Mark is an author, speaker, and senior leader of red church in Melbourne, Australia.
I invited them on the show to talk about the worldwide impact of the Asbury outpouring, both shared stories of how they have witnessed revival happening beyond Asbury and all the way to Australia. Mark talks about what he’s experienced within his own church in Melbourne, and Rob shares stories about touring parts of Australia with students from Asbury, and seeing the remarkable ways God is at work on the other side of the world.
It’s an inspiring episode that we’re excited to share with you all. So here’s my conversation with Rob Lim and Mark Sayers.
Hi guys, thank you all for joining us today. I’m excited to have you guys on. [00:01:00] And so Rob, as we get started, um, tell us how you and Mark got to know each other.
Rob: Well, um, we’re both held from Melbourne, Australia, and, uh, both coffee lovers, but, um, I think, I think the relationship really started to, um, we started to really get to know each other during the outpouring, actually, um, I’ve heard of Mark, uh, there’s some ministries that, um, we’ve both been involved in, but separately over the years, but, um, I think due to what happened in Wilmore, Kentucky and the, um, the broadcast that it’s sent around the world.
Um, there were many people, not just in Australia, that, um, that is pricked up around Curiosity. I just happened to be an Australian here and, um, and, uh, had the chance to connect with Mark on this very topic. Okay.
Wes: So, um, so that was your first finding out about the outpouring, Mark, or had you heard about it [00:02:00] prior to connecting with Rob?
Mark: Yeah. So I think it just started to happen, but definitely in Australia, people were aware of it in the church, with the church world. Um, and yeah, it definitely, I mean, I almost describe it as like a flare being let off in a, Lifeboat and people could see it at night and I think coming out of covid so we, we in Melbourne had a very long lockdown, almost two years.
Um, and I think also at the same time in Australia too, there was probably watching from afar some of the sort of platforms being pulled down and ministry crises that were happening. So it was sort of like. Almost this good news story that sort of shot up from a place I knew about Asbury, but a lot of most average Aussie Christian probably wouldn’t have heard of it.
So I think it also shocked people that it was coming from a place which wasn’t a well known megachurch or something like that. But I think the spirit of it too connected with, you know, like a lot of people, the sort of humble side of it really connected with the church. [00:03:00] Maybe something in Aussies as well.
Um, so straight away people were like talking about it and interested and we, you know, at our church we’ve been sort of pressing into the idea of renewal for some time. So it was like this good news story of wow, it’s actually happening somewhere in the Western world was a really good news story for us.
Wes: Yeah, yeah. Um, so then, uh, what have you seen as we’re now home? How far out are we from the actual year and a half now? Yeah, a half. Um, so what have been some of the, uh, impact that you’ve seen in that worldwide, be it in Australia or just in general of what effect this is having around the world?
Mark: Yeah. So it was really interesting.
So we, we run a podcast called Rebuilders and, um, we’re friends with Pete Gregg of 24 7 Prayer and my wife works for 24 7. So Pete had, was that. And, um, we sort of contacted him and said, do you want to come on and report on the outpouring? And he literally had driven from the outpouring, came back to his hotel room and we sort of went, you know, with him and interviewed him straight away.
And that episode just went viral, um, around the world. And we have a lot of, we have an audience in the US, but we’ve got an audience all over the world. And it just was like, It had so much resonance. We, at our church, sort of felt like I got, I got a text from someone who was here and they were like, you should come and, you know, prayed about it with my wife.
But we just really felt the Lord saying, no, no. Press into something where you are.
Mark: And so we’re like, wow, on Earth do we do that? So we just as a leadership team just felt like, why don’t we just create space on a, uh, like a afternoon. Uh, on Sunday and just with no agenda, just seek God and we just call it the renewal sessions.
We didn’t know what to call it. We just said it’s going to be lo fi. We just did this room and a bunch of people turned up from our church and other churches that are meeting first for nothing really much happened. Uh, so first three, but on the fourth one, we got to the end of it and we just began to sense something was happening in the room and we began to feel very strongly the presence of God.
And our generations pastor at the time, I didn’t know how to end it. So we, we had it between seven 30 and eight 30 and, um, or maybe six 30 I can’t remember. It got to the end of the hour. Uh, And she grabbed the mic off me and she just said, the Holy Spirit’s here. And we just felt this incredibly peaceful presence of God really overtook the room.
And people didn’t leave for hours. And there were lives which were just profoundly transformed. Like people completely changed in this moment. We didn’t leave it. It just was like the Holy Spirit took the room. So we didn’t, I now know a lot of what happened in Asbury. We didn’t know a lot. We knew what was happening, but we didn’t know a lot of, I guess, the sort of marks of it.
Um, and then on our podcast, we just started talking about this [00:06:00] and then emails, messages started flying in from all over the world of people who we called them spot fires, who had similar experiences all over the place. And we began to realize like Asbury was, One of the largest manifestations of something that was happening just before that, just after that, around that time, around the world.
So we just felt for some time we were narrating, we know, or we still feel that like we’re narrating what God’s been doing. So we got emails from Africa, you know, uh, Central Europe, uh, Canada, New Zealand, small churches in rural Australia where God was moving. So we were just like, man, something’s happening here.
So our attention was pricked to the fact that something is moving and Asbury is part of the bigger story. Um, Yeah, that was that was the sense.
Wes: That’s amazing. Yeah. And, um, so Rob, for those who don’t know, you’re a professor at the university. You graduated from the seminary. Um, what have you seen in the time since then at Asbury and how the students have responded and maybe gone out and just in general, how are things at the university right now?
Rob: Uh, no doubt the outpouring was an extraordinary moment and, um, you saw the work of the Spirit accelerate in people’s lives over those 16 days. And many people since then have asked that question, what, what has campus life been like since then? Um, now we know there, there’s hasn’t been continued lingering, uh, to this day.
But what we do know is God also works in the ordinary. And, uh, especially so. So from a student life perspective, there has continued to be a fervency, there’s continued to be a zeal, there’s continued to be a hunger, but it’s been, um, expressed through ordinary means of student life, whether it’s discipleship groups, um, whether it’s chapel, even whether it’s, uh, getting [00:08:00] involved in the classroom or on the athletics fields.
I think it’s not so much the, um, desire for something extraordinary again. But I think it’s the posture of your life being orientated towards something which provides hope and life. And I think that’s the, um, that’s what’s happened at the university now. And, um, even not to, just to simply focus on Asbury itself.
I think if, um, he looked at a generation more broadly and we’ve heard of many campuses around the United States and even abroad that have experienced, um, um, similar manifestations. Um, the most pleasing thing so far is seeing the orientation of the hearts of these individuals who’ve been impacted. And let’s say it’s generation Z for now.
Um, uh, continue to want to grow, right? Because the word we would use is, uh, pursuing sanctification. There’s a, uh, they’re not trying, they don’t want to remain stagnant. They don’t want to remain still in their faith. It’s not simply a confess and I’m a believer. Um, There is a genuine desire to grow and mature in the faith.
And I think that’s, that’s, um, that’s the pleasing thing and that’s what we’re witnessing on campus. Um, but that’s also led to not simply like a personal piety per se, but I think you’ve also seen, um, students, um, I guess have a compulsion to want to testify and share so it hasn’t just meant a transformation for their own individual life, but it’s led to, uh, a desire to see, see action be taken, um, not, not works based per se, but, um, to share the story, uh, because they’ve, they’ve witnessed, they’ve hope they’ve witnessed something that has given them life.
And, um, that’s been such a humble, um, it’s been such a humble privilege to witness that.
Wes: Oh yeah. Yeah. And so you mentioned with Gen Z and certainly at Asbury, um, that was a lot of the focus and the leadership stepping back and saying, we’re going to let this happen how it happens and let our students lead this.
Um, so worldwide, are we seeing this as a movement among young people? Primarily, or what, what are we seeing worldwide with that?
Mark: Yeah. So, we, um, began to notice that it was very broad. So, I think there’s definitely a Gen Zed, sorry, Gen Z, uh, um, uh, component, which we’re, we’re 100 percent seeing. Um, we had Rob and David and Karen Thomas and two of the students, Wes and Susanna, come and do a sort of testifying, you know, tour of the Eastern Seaboard of Australia.
Yeah. And we were sort of not sure who would turn up and we thought, is it going to be all younger people? And there was a lot of Gen Z who did turn up, but we were really struck. I’ve done events in Australia for years, but we saw it was multi age. multi ethnic, multi denominational, uh, the breadth of denominationality I’ve just never seen before, all coming out to hear about the outpouring, but also testify what had been happening in their communities.
I thought initially it’d be like, oh, it’s a bit of a novelty. We’ll hear about what happened, but they really were coming and also going, this is what’s happening here. So, you know, in my mind are these images now of Um, young, um, members of Catholic orders with habits, uh, young guys praying with their hands up next to Pentecostals with their hands in the air.
We had Egyptian Coptics come who there’s a movement amongst, uh, they’re young people like a renewal. Like we had no idea. These groups. don’t normally get together. We had reformed folks, you know, Methodist folks, like it was stunning the breadth of these, uh, groups and just incredibly multicultural, uh, multi age, and I’ve just never seen hunger like that in Australia.
And a lot of the stories that we’ve harvested through the podcast are very similar. Um, so I just think there’s a genuine hunger in the people of God, but I would say almost what’s defining it is a remnant idea. So I think. What’s happened in the last few years, particularly through COVID, a lot of people didn’t come back to church.
A lot of either interpersonal conflict or polarization in certain countries. There’s almost this hunger for the people of God to be renewed, which we’re seeing bubbling up from all kinds of groups. So what unites them? Because you had that moment, you’re looking across some of these rooms going, what on earth would unite all these people?
It was a hunger for God. Like I remember we did this response time at the Sydney event and just seeing people come forward. Uh, 80 year olds kneeling next to a 18 year olds and just so many different backgrounds. So yeah, I think that this is about like, we’ve almost come to the end of ourselves a bit as the church and that’s the part where God can start to take over.
Wes: Yeah. And it really is a picture of the kingdom of God bringing all of these different people together in a way that, like you said, wouldn’t normally happen. Um, to me, that’s one of the most encouraging things to hear that it’s uniting so many people in this way. Um, so, um, I get one of my questions that I’ve thought about through all of this and, Maybe it comes from too cynical of a place.
But, uh, when we talk about it in our churches, having seen this, some of us from afar and not having actually experienced it, um, there can be the desire to, Oh, I want to see outpouring renewal in my church. That alone is not a bad thing, but. I think there, there can be a gray area when we start saying, well, I want what happened at Asbury to happen here.
And we almost idolize may not be the right word, but we almost idolize the experience that some people have had and say, I want that for myself. And so how do we guard against that? And pray for, as we’ve been talking about at St. Luke, which is the church that Rob and I go to, a boldness in Christ and those things.
How do we appropriately, um, as churches seek God in a renewal? Yes.
Rob: Yeah. And Wes, I’ll, I’ll say, um, uh, that you described it as cynicism, but I’ll actually say, um, having a sense of curiosity around the authenticity of something is very important. And, um, I, I, I believe that what drew people to, um, these spot fires, including Asbury around the world is a desire for authenticity.
Now, um, Mark and I have chatted about this before, but naturally, as human beings, our response is to compare and desire, and it’s very easy to get into a mode that’s formulaic and say, okay, we need to do steps A, B, and C and causal, and this will happen. But again, as soon as we get into a posture of that, and we’re, we’re masters at manufacturing, aren’t we?
As soon as we get into a posture of that, um, suddenly this, this, this thing that was hungered for, which was authentic, suddenly becomes utilitarian. Yes. And I think that’s, um, I think, It’s, it’s, again, that whole Oxford mind, Aldersgate heart thing, isn’t it? We experience something which is so pure that sets the heart on fire, but there’s a desire to, um, it’s important to intellectualize, but there’s a desire to intellectualize to the point that it’s, um, that it’s a product.
It’s commoditized. I think the mission of the Church, um, is to, um, Uh, be cautious, healthy, healthy, healthy in its approach, uh, and wise in its approach, and discerning in its approach around what is going on. Um, and, um, again, to resist urges to, for this to be, uh, movemental for the sake of Um, being in the in crowd versus being movemental because, um, it is, it, it, it meets and satisfies something which nothing else can, can satisfy.
Um,
Rob: now that’s, that’s hard and I think that’s why the Lord has given, um, community, uh, that’s why he, he asks us to be with one another, the whole concept of church so that we can encourage, we can safeguard, we can guide, we can, um, discern collectively, um, to protect ourselves from ourselves against going down paths like that.
But I think that, that, that comment you make is, is a wise one. It’s important to be vigilant.
Mark: Yeah. I mean, I’d add to like, it was really interesting for us. So what began to happen, we had that experience in that renewal session, but then it began to break into our church services. And we had church services where we were halfway through and we got to communion and then just turn into an altar call or.
Two songs in, the Spirit started to move and, uh, it began to happen to people just at home, like there was one, like, um, uh, you know, young woman in our congregation who missed one of the events, but then woke up one morning and just had this experience of the Holy Spirit. And so, The question I began to have then is like, hang on, this is not going to look like Asbury and we couldn’t meet for two weeks, you know, like we rent a building, you know, the police would have turned up by 2am if we, if we had have kept going and kicked us out of there because we were making noise, you know, there’d be like all these problems.
And so, you know, even talking to some of my friends, it was great like chatting to some of my friends in the UK who had similar experiences in churches were asking the question, like, what does this look like? And I love the Aldersgate example there, because you see you have this moment, like of an outpouring moment at Aldersgate, but then it ripples through into all these real world effects of the growth of the church, the renewal of the church, you know, [00:18:00] the renewal of people, the societal impacts, the evangelistic impacts.
So I sort of feel like, I mean, we’re in a season now where. We’re just, all of a sudden, the last four weeks before I left, just having incredible evangelistic openness from unchurched Aussies who, for the last 20 years, would have not been interested. Like starting to ask out people about faith, which is like blowing our, our, in stores, in just conversations in the street, at the workplace.
So we’re like, Oh my Lord, you’re going ahead here. So my thought, what I feel is that there’s not. Whereas, sometimes you had moves of God where everyone’s looking back,
or it
Mark: becomes a place of pilgrimage. This feels like the beginning of something is my sense. And so I feel like the story is still being written.
It’s going to take different shapes. Like Stephen Foster, my friend in Oxford, they’ve had stuff happening. And he’s like, he said to me, there’s almost like one month where there was filling the presence. Another month there was healings. Another month, that’s crazy stuff. I literally unchurched people just turning up going, I’ve had a, I’ve had a dream that I need to come to your [00:19:00] church, you know, just almost stuff you’d hear about in the, some of the Muslim world, uh, some of those stories.
So I feel like it’s an unfolding story. Um, uh, and we feel we’re, you know, part of a story that God’s writing in the world.
Wes: Yeah. Yeah. So as a leader, um, How are you, uh, thinking about this as you shepherd your people and, uh, to not obviously quench anything, but what has been your thought process through all of this?
Mark: Yeah, I’ve thought a lot about this. Um, I mean, in some ways, you know, we feel as in a real privileged place as a church of, you know, You know, our board, our staff, our congregation seemed to be pointing in the same direction with this. But that’s not something we programatized. That came through a significant period of, uh, you know, two years of where we couldn’t really meet.
A bunch of stuff that happened after that. My wife had a, you know, very serious health journey with cancer. So our church went through a tremendous amount of suffering. And when we did this tour, um, in Australia, a lot of the churches that the most impact was at, they would sit down and tell you the journey they’d been through of pain.
And so I feel like God had humbled us. And so we sort of realized that this is not about programitize, programitization. It’s actually about a presence paradigm. And how do we lead into that? But you still need to do the ordinary things. So you have these weeks where you’re like, Holy Spirit moved on Sunday.
On Wednesday, you’re talking about some building project or this or that. And those two worlds actually realize two parts of it. Um, and so, You know, uh, Pete Craig said this great line, I think it was actually off air when he did that cross, he said, you know, one of the things he was asking people when he came to Asbury, he said to the students, you’re washing your undies, your underpants, you know, um, because he said, you know, this Holy Spirit can be pouring out, but you’ve got to be doing the things to look after yourself and have sustainable.
So I think for us, it’s like, how do we lead into this where this is a long haul? I flew here 15 and a half hours. Australians do long haul flights because we’re so far from anywhere in the world. We’ve done Perth to London, which is just epic. And so for me, I’m starting to think about what is a I’ve said to our church, I don’t want to look back on, you know, the, the summer of 24 for us as a beautiful period.
You know, I want to look forward to a long haul renewal where God keeps turning up. And I look at what came out of the original Wesleyan awakening was, you know, a couple hundred years, you know, near my house, there’s a Wesleyan chapel that probably a hundred plus years afterwards that it was built because that.
Echo was still rippling on the other side of the world. I mean, Australia was Mars back then to London, you know, and so. Yeah, I think it’s a new posture that God’s inviting us into to lead out of, um, to lead our people into. And sometimes it’s getting out of the way as a leader.
Wes: This is what
Mark: I’m learning.
Wes: Yeah. So Rob, can you tell us a little bit about the tour that you were a part of and, um, who all was involved in that and what did you guys do during that?
Rob: Yeah. So, um, During summer, uh, as Mark mentioned, uh, a few of us from the university and, um, David and Karen Thomas, who I know I affiliated with the seminary.
Flew out to Australia to join Mark and Trudy and the 24 7 team to, to testify to, to what God had done. Um, the funny thing though was, Wes, and as much as we say, uh, that the ministry we’re a part of, uh, and I’m speaking from an Asbury perspective now, uh, Asbury plural, um, the seminary and the university, is it felt like the Australian church, Was ministering to us.
And I think I could, I could speak that on behalf of David, Karen and Wes and Susanna who went, um, [00:23:00] because notwithstanding that we saw something firsthand here, when you see something occurring literally on the other side of the world, amongst a group of people you’ve never met before and you have no relationship with apart from Mark Trudy and the others.
and you see their response to what God is doing, not necessarily something we are doing. Um, the only thing you can do is, um, worship and be in awe and also Again, then testify to what you saw in Australia. So I feel the, the experience of Australia has, has really been encouraging to my faith. Um, even beyond that, I traveled throughout Southeast Asia and again, just got wonderful, humbled opportunities to testify to the outpouring there and seeing very similar, similar, uh, traits of hunger and thirst, but also very similar responses in terms of what, what was needed for the human condition, notwithstanding that their, their ethnic makeup was totally different to what you’d see within Australia or North America or, or England.
Um, and, um, Again, I know you’re asking what was it like with the, with going around, but in, in many ways, it’s, um, I would say I had more chance, I was blessed to have the chance to witness more of what God was doing and seeing how consistent it was, how consistent the human condition was, irrespective of people, tribe and tongue, and how consistent the response was, um, not for a, um, not for something which was very stage heavy or anything like that, but rather.
The, the condition, the antidote for the condition that people were feeling was, was a sense of, um, lowliness, was a sense of humility, was a sense of confession, was a sense of repentance. And, um, probably just one example quickly is, um, when I was traveling through Borneo, I, um, and I shared this with Mark, um, a, uh, I was just about to talk about the outpouring that happened at Asbury when another couple mentioned a revival that happened in Borneo.
So I just paused and asked them to explain what it was like.
Yeah.
Rob: And, uh, The way they described this manifestation of God’s presence in Borneo was literally, um, like for like for what I would have used to describe Asbury. And these are people I’d never met before in another spot fire that occurred on another part of the world, um, in response to a human condition that was similar.
Um, But it didn’t, you know, Asbury is not, it’s not the Asbury outpouring. I think it’s more a global outpouring that God is doing. But obviously, as Mark noted, there was a, like a bit of a flare due to it occurring in, um, the United States. But, um, one thing I would want to just encourage listeners and viewers is what I personally believe, not believe, I’m absolutely, um, [00:26:00] confident of is What we are seeing in these various parts of the world, and including North America, is a consistent response to, um, the state we’re in.
And a consistent manifestation of what God is trying to point our church, the global church towards. And, um, That consistency that we’re seeing, uh, has to encourage us. And it’s still, it’s still, uh, it’s not led. And I don’t know who’s leading these movements in Borneo. But there’s a consistency there. And, um, praise be to God.
Yeah.
Mark: Yeah. And I think it’s like, It’s been interesting, like in some of the first explanations of Asbury, you know, people talked about, you know, the contextual state of what was happening in America and young people coming into a world of polarization, you know, the church hurt, you know, uh, a number of these factors all happening at once.
which I think was part of the contextual preconditions. But it’s interesting that a lot of these other countries, some of those things weren’t happening, you know, in Australia, it’s not polarized in the same way, you know, and, um, you, you, but I’m almost coming around to, I just wonder how much of this is God in his mercy, just pouring out his spirit, because you can almost get into this, like, if it’s A, B, C, and D, it’s going to be, you know, F or G or whatever.
Whereas I just wonder whether God’s like, you guys have been trying real hard, You’re not getting anywhere. I’m just going to turn up. And, um, so yeah, I think it’s because you can have a formula of what to do afterwards, but you can almost have a formula like, Oh, this has happened before. Um, yeah. So it’s, it’s, it’s more, I think the commonality of we just really need God.
Rob: I know we’ve been talking about the, uh, there hasn’t really been a formula, but I guess the only formula that there really has been, has been a letting go. So that, that has been the commonality that, um, when there has been, um, when we pull back from the innate desire we have to have things structured and predictable, um, we And when we allow God to move in those moments, the response is, has been powerful and consistent.
That’s where we’ve seen a common response.
Mark: I mean, we had, you know, David spoke at Hillsong in Australia and, you know, I was invited to some ministry time at the end of the service. And it was fascinating too, because if you saw it formulaic, you’d say, what happened to Asbury was, it was a bunch of students leading worship.
And, you know, You know, sort of ugly worship, you know, it was almost, I think, um, some of the people described it as, but God using that. But here we’re at Hillsong, which has been on this amazing journey through some real pain, but this is really beautiful renewal work happening. And. then to see that happen at the end of the service where they moved into lingering, but it wasn’t lingering.
That was like, it wasn’t as, but it was a kind of lingering, but it was like who Hillsong was, it was like the original call coming out. So he had 15 people on stage who were incredible musicians, but then that sort of almost letting the Holy Spirit just take over. And, you know, I was in that moment going, wow, okay, this is another expression, but it’s the same thing.
So I almost feel like part of what this is, is. God bringing us back to our original calls of different movements, you know, so it’s going to look different in different places, but the heart of coming back to God, what we’re called to is really key.
Wes: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really amazing hearing all these different stories and the different ways, um, God is manifesting in various places in the world.
And, um, I mean, uh, this might be an obvious question, but Why do you think we’re surprised?
Mark: It’s a great question, you know, I think, I think we ingested secularism’s narrative in a way and I think that We were opposed to secularism, but we bought some of its truths. So in economics, when you say there’s a secular decline, it means there’s an inevitable decline of wages.
So if there’s a secular decline in wages, there’s an inevitable decline. So the very word secularism speaks of an inevitable decline. So when we talk about secularization of the West, we’re saying it’s inevitably going to decline as the church. So I think we almost, Bought what our enemies were saying about us.
So I think even many people were shocked, you know, that it was happening. Part of what happened to Asbury, it was Gen, Gen Z, Gen Z was shocking to people. Um, and that it wasn’t hype driven, you know, so it broke a lot of the paradigms that we had bought and ingested that well to compete in the world, you’ve got to do this stuff.
And I think we’d gotten to the end of that stuff. And I think how I do think. Trudy was, my wife was in a, in a store recently and got into this evangelistic conversation. This is the openness. And the woman just had the line. She just said, she was sharing her spiritual [00:31:00] opus and she just said to Trudy, something’s changed since COVID, hasn’t it?
And I think one thing that did unite the world was COVID and it’s not even countries had so many different COVID responses. different effects, but there was a break in normality, you know, and everyone in the world saw those pictures of everything stopping. And whether that was six weeks or four weeks, or it was two years you shut down for, I think that there is something, I think in years to come, we’ll look back as part of this story where God got our attention.
I’m not saying of course, or anything like that, but in some ways, COVID, we saw the unexpected in the world. And I think that opened up a possibility for us to see the unexpected from God and started to undo the secular narrative, even in us.
Hmm. Hmm.
Wes: Yeah. Yeah. And it is interesting to think about that event that at least in America had some polarization to it, but really was a uniting factor to the [00:32:00] world that we’ve never in my lifetime seen.
Hmm. I’d never experienced before. And how amazing the, now this outpouring of could be a even greater connection point for the world. Um, so, uh, we’re being at a seminary, um, and with the decline in seminaries around the country, at least in the United States, um, how do you see going forward the seminary’s role in, um, renewal to, uh, sustain that, um, for people who now maybe are wondering what are my next steps now that I’ve experienced this, uh, um, renewed passion for God and things.
What do you see as the seminary’s role moving forward in the world? Yeah. Good question.
Mark: Yeah. I mean, I think that, uh, Yeah, I mean, Australia’s probably seminaries are declining at even a greater rate. And um, I think what’s gone is people are not gonna go to seminary ’cause that’s what you do, . Yeah. And, um, so I think why would someone come to a seminary is a great question for seminaries to ask.
And so I think that seminaries become containers, uh, have a potential to become containers that, uh, in a sense put. the sort of legs on this renewal movement. I think like a, you know, I’m a big fan of Richard Lovelace’s book on the dynamics of renewal, you know, and he almost sees renewals as this inevitable dynamic in the church.
And so I think seminaries themselves have these renewal moments. And I, often they come, you know, just before crisis. You know, one of my little sayings is crisis precedes renewal. And I think this crisis in seminaries is a moment of reinvention. And I think people will come to seminaries for spiritual growth, not just intellectual growth as well.
And I love that Oxford head, um, Aldersgate heart dynamic. I think those two things are what they’re going to be looking for, um, in seminary and as a place of discernment and as a spiritual community. I know many seminaries have been doing that, but I think that They want to see a place. I mean, I, I worked at a seminary for a period of time and, you know, saw as I was lecturing the distance that can come between practice and reality and, and so, you know, like idea, idealism and reality and lecturing and reality.
And I think that disparity. Um, it’s going to be seen through in an emerging generation. You know, they want to see, uh, professors, teachers who are alive, you know, and, and I think that’s magnetic. And so there’ll be drawn to a place where God’s on the move there. God’s working that my what’s happening in my heart is happening there.
But then the sort of flesh on it, the, cause again, to how many, there’s a long history of awakenings, which are like quick flashes. You know, I look at Wales, today is one of the most unchurched places in the United Kingdom, yet there was the Great Welsh Revival. And you see how revivals and awakenings can go into error theologically, Second Great Awakening, um, there’s lots of sects and movements that came out of that, that went into heresy.
So I think the role of the seminary is really great to sort of guard the theology, but it must be accompanied by that fire. So that heart and head thing, I think it’s got to be central to what happens
Rob: now. Yeah.
Mark: Yeah.
Rob: Even just building on what Mark said, I think, um, uh, a response from seminaries too is, uh, to be discerning of the times.
Yes. And we need to recognize what is the audience that the seminary, I’m sorry to use a very like a, uh, like a production word, but who is seminary for? And even as I just contemplate that now and ask myself that question and think about Mark’s comments on secularism, um, Unfortunately, I think even, even, uh, the church and Christian institutions, seminaries have drunk the Kool Aid and saying, we’ve got this product, we’ve got this commoditized thing about, come in and get, get something.
And just, just with this move of God that’s been occurring, where there’s been an emphasis on authenticity, I think the question then is, okay, so what, what, Who, who is seminary for? Is it a production conveyable to come in and obtain something for the sake of, and again following that commoditized theme, attain, attain a, attain a, um, a scout badge so that I can do something, get the, get the qualifications, a very, um, economic term, get the prequel to do something.
Yes, yes. In my mind, is that, this, is let’s say an awakening, is it driven based on people that are productionized? No, I think that kind of goes against what it is. So in my mind.
seminary really is a place of formation, intellectually and spiritually, head and heart and hand, if it comes down to practice. And how can we reorientate ourselves and all seminaries around the world to recognize that we are living in an age where authenticity is valued, Not fabricated, but valued in a genuine way.
How do we And if you look at the audience from that perspective, there are many people, I think it’s not just people that want to get the qualifications to be a pastor.
Rob: I think there are many people that want to grow, um, in, uh, grow, abide with the Lord, to grow in intimacy with the Lord. In some sense, it’s not even about the degree.
The degree is a great thing. Good thing that happens. But I think through that journey, you grow intellectually, you get the Oxford mind, you get the oldest game heart and you learn to practice and you’re not in it for the sake of qualifications. Notwithstanding, that’s a nice thing that happens. But more importantly, you are utterly transformed.
And in fact, The seminary should be institutions of, of, um, of outpouring in some sense, in the ordinary, in the ordinary ways. And then the people that come out of it, yes, they might happen to have qualifications, but they are more importantly, um, people that have a greater, greater sense of this authentic expression of who God is, head, heart, and hand.
And I think that’s then, you know, That, I think that appeals then, because now it’s not simply pastors, it’s not simply missionaries, it’s people in the marketplace, which I’m passionate about, it’s mom and dad at home that want to just grow in their faith.
Rob: It’s people that, um, want to, um, might simply have a desire to understand a certain aspect of, of, of theology or church history for their own, own personal growth in the Lord.
And, um, Suddenly the audience is bigger and, um, so I think that’s one way if, if the tone, uh, of what God is, appears to be crying out right now is an authenticity, I think, um, seminaries and institutions around the world can respond equally so. Yeah.
Wes: Yeah. And that word authenticity, and you spoke about that in chapel this morning as well.
And, um, do you think maybe that’s also why? At least when we’re speaking about the Asbury specific outpouring experience, if authenticity is kind of what’s coming out of this in a big way, um, it seems like, and I might be generalizing that with the younger generation, that is really important to them, if things are authentic.
Institutions. They’re very distrusting of, um, at least in the folks that I’ve spoken to and, um, seeing authenticity because so much is questioned now and so much as, well, is this really the way this has to be and all of this? And, um, Yeah. So I just think that idea of authenticity [00:40:00] and like you said, with our seminaries, with everything that we do, our churches even having an authentic, um, truth that we’re putting out into the world rather than just a commodity or a prefabricated order of how we’re going to do things to achieve a result, because that’s not the way the world is moving, certainly within the younger generation.
Wes: Yeah. And I think that’s interesting that that’s also kind of where this movement originated here, at least, within that.
Mark: I agree. I mean, I think institutions have been, Yuval Levin talks about, they’ve been sort of subverted by people seeking platform, you know, that you see the politician who, you know, Gets into Congress to boost their social media following and you know, I think that an institution which can get back to that forming people authentically is absolutely crucial.
And
Rob: I think that’s why there’s so much appeal because, um, uh, towards this authentic expression because it has been such deficit,
how poor it’s been. Even just me reminding myself right now, Can you imagine a church that was entirely authentic with what it sung, and preached, and read, and how it lived?
Like, even just that simple thought, it, it sounds world changing. It really does. And, um, I think that’s, that’s the heart cry that seems to be coming out from Gen Z, and not just Gen Z, but I think everyone.
Wes: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Definitely. So I guess, um, as we’re wrapping up, um, something that we were talking about off air, but, um, when we think about revival and things, we usually think historically that this is something from the long past and not things that can happen now.
And we’ve talked a little bit about that. Why are we surprised about this? But what can we learn from history when it comes to revivals? How pouring is, what can we learn as we are living into this now in our lifetime?
Mark: Yeah. I think number one to expect them because this throughout history, I think secondly, that they’re a great antidote to nihilism.
I think that. When culture is struggling and crises seem to be everywhere, uh, the fact that often they come just before, you know, after crises is a great reassurance. I think when the church gets into a sort of nihilistic, hopeless mindset, fear takes over and the church can find itself in error, grasping for, you know, the sword rather than, you know, the scriptures.
And, um, so I think, you know, like often, I just think particularly in the last few years, there’s been a lot of people in really dismayed by the direction they’ve seen culture going in. So I think knowing that, Hey guys, this is, this is off. Like the funny thing for me is like when things were a lot more stable, I was probably more pessimistic, but I’ve become a lot more hopeful as things have gotten worse because I’ve just read history, you know, and, um, The other thing I would say too is, um, you know, God empowers for a purpose, um, that I think that there’s these beautiful moments where He draws close, we experience His presence, we experience His love, um, you know, Israel through the tabernacle was given a way of drawing close to God, but that was also for the purpose of Israel to be a holy people, a witness to the world, you know, and then we see that through the New Testament, so I think the empowerment comes to be witnesses, so another thing I’d say is that there has to be a flow on effect, you know, and I think, you know, we see, you know, I look in, in, in, again, Australia at some of the social effects that, you know, the awakenings that happened at the beginning of the 20th century for us had on the entire culture around, you know, workers rights and, uh, so many different things.
So I think, you know, not making just an experience in an age, which loves experience, uh, to not just make an experiential based thing that actually needs that flow on. And lastly, I would say as well, that I think there’s something unique about all of us. You know, um, you know, uh, in Chesterton’s, I think it’s Chesterton’s biography of Thomas Aquinas, he says that often God brings a saint as an antidote to the ills of their age.
And I think in the same way with revivals, renewals, outpourings, awakenings, whatever language you want to use, they often become as an antidote to something happening in the world. And I was reading the other day, actually, Jacques Ellul’s book, called The Technological Society, and he just talked about the fact that technology technique is taking over the world, and he predicted, this was written in the 60s, that one day maybe sort of technological man would again hunger for spiritual experience and sort of outpourings of religious, you know, ecstasy at these moments.
And I wonder if that’s linked to also what’s happening in the world. There’s an increased disembodiment, disconnection, and so forth. computers are upending our order. And so I wonder if there’s gonna be something unique around this too, around that authenticity, because it’s a counterpart to what we feel that our digital society is doing this as well.
So I think there’s going to be a unique charism or unique mark to this, this moment of what God’s doing. So yeah, looking out for all those things I think is really key.
Rob: And just to build on what Mark said as well, I think, um, yeah. Historically, you look at revivals, outpourings, whatnot, um, not all of them have led to huge major societal change, but some have.
And I think, um, uh, again, putting, not trying to say we manufacture anything, but, um, I think if we witness a powerful manifestation of God, it, it demands a response and, um, the Red Seas part, you walk, you know, and, uh, I think there can be a great temptation just continue to want to live in the, um, uh, continue to seek 16 day outpourings non stop, but, um, as we started right at the start of this, um, interview, there’s, there’s a, there’s a, There’s a power in the ordinary and, um, in fact, what I believe happens where we see revival instances of revival and outpouring turn into awakenings is where it does demand a response.
It, the response is not manufactured, but living into the Christian life. And that, that simplicity of what we are awakened to, um, shows what we, shows the slumber condition that we were in. So, I think being awakened to live into the authentic expression of what it is to be a Christian. To truly be a disciple that picks up the cross and follows after Him, not ahead of Him.
That, that the authentic expression to love God. Love God, love neighbor, um, rather than fall for consumeristic Christianity.
They are just standard Sunday school truths, aren’t they? But again, it shows how far we have,
Rob: we’ve pushed that side, pushed that aside. So, in some sense, I think, for me, I think the hope is that these, um, These events, by God’s grace and mercy, which is poured out, it simply turns those Sunday school truths into a reality that we live into.
And if we live into that, uh, then, you know, praise be to God, we have history just showing us he’s, he is led, paved the way for societal awakening.
Wes: Well, guys, I have really enjoyed this conversation and I appreciate you both coming on. Um, since this is the Thrive with Asbury Seminary podcast, I’d like to ask everybody, what’s something that’s helping you thrive in your life right now?
So either of you can start.
Rob: I’d say friendships. And God has just blossomed random friendships around the world with people that have the same hunger.
Mark: Yeah, I think connected to that is Realizing that you’re a note in the greatest symphony that God is writing and playing in the world. You know, I think we live in a time of [00:48:00] purposelessness.
And I feel that, you know, you can go through really difficult things when you have a purpose. And I think like thriving, knowing that God, this is all evidence of his work in the world and that we get to be part of that. Friendships are part of the connective tissue of that. Um, so I think, yeah, just the bigger, greater meaning that comes from being part of the big thing God’s doing.
Rob: And coffee too.
Wes: All right, well, thank you guys very much. I’ve enjoyed having you guys on today. Thanks guys. Thank you.
Mark: Great to be here.
