Today on the podcast, I got to talk to Dr. Jackie Perry. She is a North Carolina Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and Supervisor and is currently an Assistant Professor of Counseling at Asbury Theological Seminary. Since 1991, she’s had the privilege of counseling hundreds of children, adolescents and families as they cope with anxiety, depression, grief and loss and other emotional and behavioral challenges. She uses a God-centered, soul-focused, and neuro-informed blend of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), narrative therapy, and internal family (IFS). She also is a clinical supervisor for counselors who are pursuing licensure in the state of North Carolina.
In 2019, she released Heart Cries of Every Teen: Eight Core Desires that Demand Attention. This book was written to equip parents and caring adults to understand and address the eight heart core desires that drive and direct much of the best and worst behaviors we see unfolding during the adolescent years of development.
In today’s conversation we talk about her calling, her work as a counselor, her book, and how an understanding of these core desires can help us see, hear, value and delight in our teens and model a curious, compassionate way of looking at the world.
Let’s listen!
*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.
Dr. Jackie Perry, Assistant Professor of Counselor Education
Dr. Jackie Perry is a North Carolina Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and Supervisor (LCMHCS). Since 1991, she’s had the privilege of counseling hundreds of children, adolescents and families as they cope with anxiety, depression, grief and loss and other emotional and behavioral challenges. As a counselor and supervisor, her approach toward counseling can best be described as a God-centered, soul-focused, and neuro-informed blend of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), narrative therapy, and internal family (IFS). She is also a clinical supervisor for counselors who are pursuing licensure in the state of North Carolina. She has been at Asbury Seminary since January 2021 and is currently an Assistant Professor of Counseling at Asbury Theological Seminary.
In November 2019, her book entitled Heart Cries of Every Teen: Eight Core Desires that Demand Attention released. This book was written to equip parents and caring adults to understand and address the eight heart core desires that drive and direct much of the best and worst behaviors we see unfolding during the adolescent years of development.
She is happily married to my college sweetheart John and together we have three amazing adult children. She loves the outdoors and considers a family hike that culminates with a view of the North Carolina mountains to be an absolutely perfect day.
Heidi Wilcox, host of the Thrive Podcast
Writer, podcaster, and social media manager, Heidi Wilcox shares stories of truth, justice, healing and hope. She is best known as the host of Spotlight, (especially her blooper reel) highlighting news, events, culturally relevant topics and stories of the ways alumni, current students and faculty are attempting something big for God. If you can’t find her, she’s probably cheering on her Kentucky Wildcats, enjoying a cup of coffee, reading or spending time with her husband, Wes.
Show Notes
Guest Links
- Connect with Dr. Jackie Perry on her website.
Transcript
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. I’m your host, Heidi Wilcox, bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders, and people just like you, who are looking to connect where your passion meets the world’s deep needs. Today on the podcast, I got to talk to Dr. Jackie Perry. She is a North Carolina, licensed clinical mental health counselor and supervisor, and is currently an assistant professor of counseling at Asbury Seminary. Since 1991, she’s had the privilege of counseling hundreds of children, adolescents, and families, as they cope with anxiety, depression, grief and loss, and other emotional and behavior challenges. She uses a God-centered soul focused and neuro inform blend of cognitive behavior therapy, narrative therapy, and internal family systems.
Heidi Wilcox:
She is also a clinical supervisor for counselors who are pursuing licensure in the State of North Carolina. In 2019, she released Heart Cries of Every Teen: Eight Core Desires That Demand Attention. This book was written to help parents and caring adults to understand and address the eight hardcore desires that drive and direct much of the best and worse behaviors we see unfolding during the adolescent years of development. In today’s conversation, we talk about her calling, her work as a counselor, her book, and how understanding these core desires can help us see, hear, value, and delight in our teens and model a curious, compassionate way of looking at the world. Let’s listen.
Heidi Wilcox:
Dr. Perry, I’m delighted to get to talk to you today. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Thank you. I am so glad to be here on this Monday morning.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Well, I want to talk about your new book, well, your latest book, Heart Cries of Every Teen: Eight Core Desires That Demand Attention. But before we get into all of that, I want to give our listeners an opportunity to get to know you a little bit. So if you could tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Okay. So of course, my name is Jackie Perry, and I’ll tell you a little bit about a quick version of my faith story, my background. My parents were immigrants from Columbia, South America, and so I was the first generation American, I guess you could say. Did not grow up in a Christian home, became a Christian in high school, and then kind of grew deeper in my faith in college. And during that process, I began to feel called to the ministry of counseling. Thought I was going to be a doc like my dad and the Lord just made it clear that had a different plan for me. So I went straight from college, I went to Duke University and then went on to a program that is now called Richmont in Georgia, in Atlanta, Georgia. And at the time it was in partnership with Georgia state. Got my master’s in community counseling, and two years later was married and counseling adolescents in a variety of settings.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah, that was 1991. So it’s been 30 plus years since I’ve been working with adolescents, emergent adults, and families.
Heidi Wilcox:
Why counseling and why adolescence specifically?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I mean, I think one of the things that the Lord made clear to me was I had thought I was going to be a doctor and really just didn’t love the sciences, ended up seeing a counselor myself, and really felt the Lord say, or lead me kind of to the fact that he had prepared me to interact with people in a different way, to care for souls, not so much the physical piece, but the emotional piece.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And it’s neat because assessments made that clear as well as a relation with a counselor on a college campus. [inaudible 00:03:58].
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, I was going to mention, with your dad being a doctor of bodies, kind of take care of the physical bodies, that you’re kind of a doctor of people’s souls. Because I mean, it’s all connected body, mind…
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Absolutely.
Heidi Wilcox:
… But your work is more focused on the internal, the soul work.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
That’s right. That’s right. So there’s definitely a parallel there, and you’re right, they’re connected, interconnected.
Heidi Wilcox:
So was it challenging to start counseling adolescents? Because I’m assuming, you said you just got married, so you didn’t have adolescents yet, so what was that kind of life like?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
[inaudible 00:04:42] Basically was still one because I was 24 when I graduated with my masters and here I am counseling anywhere from 14 year olds to 17 and 18. And back in those days, I was working in residential treatment with pretty troubled teens and also pregnant and parenting teens. So it was tough, it was tough. I also think in some ways I wasn’t that far ahead of them, and so I could really extend a lot of compassion. It wasn’t that long ago that I had been an adolescent trying to figure out who I was and how to cope. So I think that was helpful.
Heidi Wilcox:
So you could kind of, maybe in addition to your extensive training, kind of approach them from, this is kind of what I needed when I was your age and it’s not so far removed that I don’t remember what it was that would’ve really helped me.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. And I think the other thing that, to be quite candid when I was picking my internships in my grad school, I think I too intimidated to sit across from adults because I felt so young. So I think that’s actually how I ended up really kind of diving into this work is out of probably an insecurity to sit across from who I think I was counseling people who are in marriage are much older than me.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, for real.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Then I never left.
Heidi Wilcox:
We’ve kind of hinted at this a little bit, but as a counselor, you believe that harmony and wholeness occurs when the will, body, mind, and spirit are integrated. How does this integration happen?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So I really do believe, well, I don’t believe, I know from what the neuroscience research as well as just scientific research on the human body is telling us that health and wholeness really is connected to a body, a mind, and a spirit that are connected, integrated, that there’s connectivity. I really do rely on and I use it in the book in a modified way, Dallas Willard’s model of the soul. And it’s just a helpful way to sort of see how these different circles and these layers, dimensions of who we are all affect one another. So when the spirit is healthy, it affects our minds, which is made up of our thoughts and feelings, which affects our body and vice versa. And there’s this inward and outward movement that when we’re in our best space, the best you or me, that’s happening. Some writers call this flow, so I like to use that word that there’s this inner flow that’s moving inward and outward.
Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What is the role of God and faith in the counseling room? Because I’m guessing not everybody that you meet with is also a believer.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
That’s right. That’s right. Many people that come to counseling, in my case, many of the parents I work with are Christians, but their kids are not really walking with the Lord. And also sometimes I see families that just aren’t interested in spiritual things across the board. But the wonderful thing about being a believer is the holy spirit resides in us and works in and through us. And so I don’t have to talk about Christ for a client, a kid, a family, to experience Christ in and through me. One of the things I talk about in training counselors is just the gaze of the father and how our non-verbals, and our presence, and our safety, and our ability to see a client physically and emotionally really reflects the heartbeat of our father if we are rooted in Christ and we experience his gaze in our own time with him. So it’s pretty a power place to be. So it’s a privilege.
Heidi Wilcox:
I’ve been on a counseling journey for, I can’t remember if it’s this month or next month, it’ll be a year. And I really have just felt, we don’t talk about faith a lot in the sessions, but I really have just felt like sacred space during that time.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yes. I often use that term as well, Heidi, yeah it’s good space.
Heidi Wilcox:
It is a good space. As you work with families, children, adolescents, we talked about the integration process, I’m like, I want to get this done, right? I’ve said I’ve been on this journey for a year and it’s been a good journey and I’m starting to see the results of the hard work. I feel like for me, it’s been symbolic that I’m seeing some of the good fruits of that work as we’re entering into spring in Kentucky. And I’m like, oh, we’ve been in this wintering and now things are blossoming a little bit in my spirit. I don’t think there’s anything really different.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Beautiful. Yeah, it’s well said.
Heidi Wilcox:
How do you know when that’s happening for your clients? And is there a time that you’re like, oh, if people go to counseling, do the work which I’ve learned sometimes it’s just showing up because I want to work hard at everything, so I want to make that clear for people that is not always, oh, I have to read this and do my homework because I thought that’s what it was, that was one of the things I had to work through. But how do you know if the process is working? Is there a time timeframe?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
There’s not a timeframe. That’s good question. There’s not a timeframe. In fact, I have some people that are young adults that I’ve seen since they were 13 and they’re still doing check-ins, and then other people that we complete our work in six to 12 sessions. But I think I want to lean into something that you’re talking about that’s really important, is most people who are coming into counseling are either experiencing some kind of struggle internally or many times in my case, their parents are bringing them in because there’s some behavioral problems and that’s the outside, right? And so one of the things that we do, I do in my work is try to make connections between what a person is experiencing internally.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And when I’m talking about that, Heidi, I’m talking about what are their thoughts and what are their feelings, what are even just what’s the state of their spiritual life? And a lot of times adolescents aren’t in touch with that, right? And a lot of [crosstalk 00:10:58]. A lot of times their parents aren’t in touch with what I call this inner space, that’s why I wrote the book. But we’re more focused on in adolescence is oftentimes their behavior, are you doing what you’re supposed to do? And I believe those are the hooks. So how I know I’m making progress with a teen and or a family is we’re moving beyond just the behavior and we’re exploring and hopefully willingly, how does this connect with what I’m actually feeling and experiencing, what are my longings, what are my thoughts, and I know we’ll talk about this in a little bit, how have those been affected by my wounds, places of pain and in the past.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So maybe the distortions that I have in my thinking that have affected my feelings, that are affecting what I do. And so when a client, when a teenager, a young adult allows me to move inward to that space and becomes vulnerable, I know this is work because it means they’re trusting me and they’re lifting up some barriers or restriction. So that’s one big clue.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
You mentioned this a little bit in what you said, but, and well, you’re leading this right into your book, which is great, you’re making my job super easy. But you mentioned understanding the what’s happening on the inside as we understand the behaviors, because you said that teens, parents bring their teens, young adults, in because of certain behaviors. Why is it so important that we understand what’s behind the behavior?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Because I think sadly many adults, many parents, and I’ve raised kids as well and my kids are all out of their teen years, praise the Lord. But we can end up being what are called behaviorists. Our kids are learning to behave in a certain way and God has really given parents the opportunity to shape a heart, to really play a role in shaping a heart. And so when parents get lost in do this and do that, and they may have the most obedient children whose hearts are not known by their parents and really maybe not even alive in some ways. And that’s often true with maybe even oldest children or youngest children who might be more conformists, and then that middle child is like, [inaudible 00:13:18], I see a lot of middle kids. They’re not willing to fall into behaviorism, but that’s really what it can become, is behaviorism, and that’s not the transformation that God invites us to be a part of with our kids.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. And you definitely talk about that in your book, Heart Cries of Every Teen, that released in 2019. Why was then the right time to write that book?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Wow. I won’t go into the many pits of despair that I found myself in writing this book, but anybody out there who’s written a book knows it is not as easy as one believes it is when one begins this journey. So the journey really started probably about 10 years before the book was released. And it started because I was doing lots and lots of speaking engagements, Heidi and I kept hearing parents say, “I wish you would write a book on this.” So I ended up at a writer’s conference and met with an agent, shared some handouts with him, and he took me on based on that. That Was even five to seven years before the book, and then writing the book was a long journey, one I would’ve thrown aside if I didn’t feel like it was very important.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
There are books out there that talk about the desires of the heart. There are many good books that talk about that. I couldn’t find any that really spoke the adolescent heart, because what’s happening in adolescence is happening alongside some of the biggest developmental changes that are going on in their lives and that is significant because of the way it impacts the heart. So I felt it was serious. I felt like God had really given me an opportunity. And many people asked me, “How’d you get it done?” And I don’t say this lightly, it was really out of obedience to what I felt the Lord wanted me to do. It was not a joy journey. It wasn’t.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I also am an extrovert, maybe you can tell that, but I’m an extrovert and a book requires you to sit alone in a room for hours and hours, days upon days, upon weeks. And yeah, that was hard for this kid, this person, woman.
Heidi Wilcox:
I’ve interviewed a lot of authors and I think it definitely is a process and a long journey…
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Long journey.
Heidi Wilcox:
… To get out there. So you released it in 2019, just before the pandemic, which we of course had no idea what was going to happen.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Right.
Heidi Wilcox:
So what was that like to have just released a book, to be wanting to go on book tours, to talk about it?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. So the timing of the book was tough. The publishers really wanted me to release it that winter. I was less than a year from graduating with my PhD, was really wanting to wait until for, probably for vein reasons until I could put that on there. But also…
Heidi Wilcox:
For sure.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
… Come up for air and finish my dissertation. So we sort of decided that it would be released. It was release late November. It’s just not a good time to go on a tour when we’re talking about the Christmas months. So I think I had a release party in late January, early February, and then some personal things happened in my extended family. And so anyways, we decided to go ahead and start meeting different people and traveling in March and moving into the summer that all got tabled. [inaudible 00:16:41]. I never did go on a book tour. So it’s a funny thing, it does feel like in some ways it was just released because I’m really now just coming up for air and being able to kind of go, oh yeah, I probably should remember that I had book. It was discouraging at the same time truly, it allowed me to be able to dig in and finish my PhD. I had to sort of go, okay, well now it’s clear, I can just focus 100% on finishing.
Heidi Wilcox:
Do you have any tours, events, speaking things or is that kind of still on hold a little bit longer?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
It’s not on hold. I don’t know that I’m seeking them as much as they’ve just come to me. I’ve spoke to parent groups often. I’m speaking this week and next week to local places, camps, mother-daughter camps, kinds of things. So they’ve just come from different interactions I’ve had with one or two people who connect me. Because I’m a professor now and I still carry a clinical load, it’s tough for me to put tons of energy into…
Heidi Wilcox:
Definitely.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
… Sneaking these engagements. But I tell you, it’s what I love to do. I love getting up in front of a group of people who work with youth or parents and share these kinds of principles.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I read on your website that you sometimes feel you’re a teacher trapped in a counselor’s body.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yes. And my clients who are teenagers would say that. I tend to [inaudible 00:18:11] pretty smart group of kids and so they’re pretty open to me, offering some education on neuroscience and why this is so hard or why that was a struggle. I’m also a chronic reader, I’m always, always reading. And so when you read a lot of facts, you love sharing those facts. So that comes into teaching.
Heidi Wilcox:
Definitely talking about the human heart, how do you define the human heart? What does that mean?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So again using, if the listeners look at [inaudible 00:18:49] model of the soul, he has these concentric circles and he talks about the soul sort of integrating these dimensions, and on the outside, we have this relational self and then this physical body, or which would include our organs and all that we’re feeling. And then that would be sort of, according to scripture, I believe the outer person. It’s what I can see when I’m interacting with a client, with a kid, with my own kids, is I can see, I can see how they’re relating to me and I can see their physical body. And that contrast with this inner person, which is much more hidden, right? It’s the mind which is made up of thoughts and feelings. So if you think of about it, you can’t have a thought without a feeling, you can’t have a feeling without a thought. So those are really married together in the mind.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And then deep in the center place of the heart is spirit. And that is more than just what maybe some people would think is like this spirit, this intangible thing within us. It’s also will, consciousness, morality, it’s this deep place that God’s word talks about, where we make our decisions, where it’s out of this place. It’s almost like this core within everybody. So everybody has a spirit, everybody is a spirit. So that center place, the heart, is made up of both mind and spirit, your thoughts, feelings, and kind of this will, or intentionality or morality. And again, that if you think about it, that’s hidden. I cannot see that in my own kids, I cannot see that in my clients, and it’s the place we most protect. We don’t let people see that easily.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh no, we don’t. Everybody has one, but a teenager’s heart is more, I would say, maybe more complex than the rest of us. Do you think that’s fair?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
It may be more complex and maybe in some ways more simplistic too. And I think it’s both. And I think their desire and maybe their belief is that they’re more sophisticated in protecting it, they’re not as sophisticated as we can get as we get older. You can really, really build intricate walls. And because of the age of teenagers, they have built walls because they’ve had to, we all have to, building walls is part of surviving. They’re not as complex as they think they are. And so they haven’t mastered the ability to hide them in their non-verbals and things like that. So it’s both, and it is complex. I think what makes it difficult to access is big behaviors and big emotions that come out that block us from being able to see the heart. We just see the behaviors and we see these intense emotions, the rudeness, the drama, the anxiety maybe, and we don’t understand what lies beneath that. And so I think there’s more, there’s just these tense behaviors and emotions.
Heidi Wilcox:
For sure. So next I want to, if it’s okay with you, I’d love to talk through the eight core desires, and then we can talk about the wounding that happens that can cause some of the behavior, the other behaviors, but we can get to the, what is actually wanted and needed first and then we can talk about that.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Absolutely.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Awesome.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Okay.
Heidi Wilcox:
You can lead us through, I can lead us through, we can just kind of free flow it through.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I’ve got it. I’ve got the list right in front of me. I should know them by heart, I do, but I also like on the spot, I’m like, oh, what’s the eighth one. I’ve been teaching this so long, but the first one is hear me. And this is a huge one for teenagers. And I often will have teenagers, I have like a handout I use with all of these just listed on there, and they’re kind of pictures of buckets. And I often ask teenagers, “If you had to only pick one or two of these and you couldn’t get rest of these, met the rest of your life, which ones would you pick?” And hear me is often, if not always chosen, it’s why the book starts with, or this section of the book starts with hear me.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
We were created by a God who expresses himself and gave us the ability and the desire to express. And so that lives inside of every human being. And when we grow up, we learn what people want to hear and what they don’t want to hear. We learn how to find ways to express and it is not always verbal. It is often in healthy ways, through artistic means, through performance, through singing, through poems, through writing, it’s also through pretty destructive behavior, writing on my skin for example, is a way that teens might choose to express themselves so that somebody will hear them. It’s important to be heard. And all of the desires are linked to ultimately this longing will not be satisfied apart from other people and apart from Christ himself. And that is God’s desire and this plan for us, yet we live in a culture that I see many teens in the last 30 years who really believe the need to need, having to need people means you’re needy.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. And so they want to believe that they don’t need anybody if they [inaudible 00:24:23].
Heidi Wilcox:
They’re self-sufficient.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Exactly, that they’re self sufficient. And so often when I take them through, not just God’s plan, because some kids don’t care, but really even the incredible research on our neurobiology, we are who we are 100% because of relationships. Our genetics come from our biology and our gene, our parents, but who you are today, Heidi and who I am today has been coauthored in relationships.
Heidi Wilcox:
Definitely.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And how to change that happens in relationships, it doesn’t happen with me sitting in a room and going, it means I work it out with other people, in therapy, in friendships, community, and in my relationship with Christ as well. [inaudible 00:25:04].
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So that’s a huge one, is just this longing to be heard and how we will as teenagers do what we need to do to get heard behaviorally and verbally.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Related to that is the next one, which is notice me. Notice me is sort of like, see me is another way of saying it. In attachment theories, we talk about the four S’s. Dan Siegel came up with these and they’re really catchy. And it’s just that every human from the moment they come into the world wants safety, to be seen, they want to be soothed, and they want to be secure. So being noticed is about being seen. Do you see me? And it’s not just physical see me, it’s also emotional see me. And again, we learn early if you’re willing to see all of me, not just my physical self, but my emotional self, and I’ll do what I need to do to be seen.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So destructive behaviors that teenagers might be doing might pushing people down just so that they can be seen. Healthy behaviors might be similar in that they’re competing, they’re on a stage, they’re the class clown. It’s related to hear me, but it’s also just will you pick me? Will you choose me? I often will talk about just sort of the longing to be special, the longing to be picked and set apart, and that God really says that about us as his children that lives out in the adolescent world all the time. He likes me or she likes me or the teacher likes me. So it’s like, notice me. You want me to move on?
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Okay. Affirm me is probably the second top longing that I see circled when I give this to teenagers. And this is just the feeling of being validated, the experience of just there’s something good and worthy about you about me and I’m hearing it. And so teenagers will do all kinds of things to get that, again, from being perfectionistic and making sure that they get straight As to the other extreme to destroying just so there’s something that could be affirmed about that.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I worked with a kid years ago, he maybe mentioned in the book, but just he was doing all kinds of kind of little bomb making, little explosives. And he felt so firmed even when he was arrested because people were commenting on designs.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So he was using these skills in a negative way. But kids really do want to be valued. I often hear kids say, “My parents only say things that I’m doing wrong instead of saying things that I’m doing right.” And it could be the little things from thanks for showing up son, or daughter. But kids really long to be validated, it makes us feel worthy. And that longing again is met in community as well as in Christ. Christ says that clearly how much we’re valued and that our worth really comes from being made in his image.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes, definitely.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. So the other big one is befriend me. And this is just the longing to be included, the longing to be in relationship with other people, and the immense pain the adolescents and young adults go through when there’s a sense of isolation and disconnection in these friendships, or rejection and abandonment. And I think we all know this is a big area where children and adolescents have suffered in the pandemic, is the relationships…
Heidi Wilcox:
For sure.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
… They [inaudible 00:28:56] have not been face to face. And there’s nothing like hanging out and watching a movie with your friends or just talking, it doesn’t compare to texting.
Heidi Wilcox:
No.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
It’s just on a whole nother level. And so just this opportunity or this desire, excuse me, to be apart of a group or community it’s in us. And God invites us to that. And again, a lot of kids will often say, “I don’t really care. I don’t need anybody,” and they’ll use maybe expletives in talking about that. And I’ll remind them that just like they need food, and water, and shelter, and clothing as part of their survival needs, they need people. And they don’t need to have tons of people, introverts don’t need to have 20 friends, but they do need to have one or two.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
They just don’t. Extroverts think something’s wrong with them sometimes when they only have one or two friends.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
There definitely are those personality types that play into how these look, but we all need some kind of a community.
Heidi Wilcox:
I’m an introvert, if I had 20 friends, I would literally probably go hide. 20 close, you know what I mean? Then I’m like, oh, I’m going to have to hang out with all of you, [inaudible 00:30:11].
Dr. Jackie Perry:
How am I going to do that? How am I going to do that? I want to stop and say one thing too. I think it’s important for those people who are listening that are parents to realize that these needs in adolescence really need to be met both in the home and outside of the home. And so for families that are homeschooling, particularly during the pandemic, many began to do that and many are continuing that for good reason, it’s important to be creative and think of ways that our teenagers can be finding these. And that has a lot to do with identity development. It is really important that they begin to practice relational skills and practice taking risks, healthy risks, so that they can understand how to create social, emotional relationships apart from sisters, brothers, mom, and dad, whoever’s at home.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So I want to caution parents in saying it is tempting to say, or look at this list and go, I need to do all of these. No. Know that they’re there, you cannot do all of them. God did not want you to do all of them. You’re not supposed to replace them either. It’s more, how can you encourage your kid to take healthy risks and find these, and to comfort them when they’re experience the pain that they will experience when these aren’t met. And that is part of growing up and also experiencing Christ potentially in the midst of their pain.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So moving on from there, the last four, allow me. And this has a lot to do, Heidi, with competence. Kids, especially older adolescents, really want to be able to show people what they can do. And I speak gently, but firmly to those parents who want to do everything for their kids. It’s really important for kids as they get older, as they’re growing up to begin to develop a sense of, I can do this. And when we rob them of the daily chores or responsibilities in their home, or even for crying out loud, writing a paper and letting them sort of learn how to do that in the messy process of getting negative feedback and not rescuing them, we actually enhance their sense of competence.
Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And they experience that in jobs, their part-time job, they experience like, “Oh my gosh, my boss said,” and it’ll never compare to things you’ve said whole lives because it’s not you, the parent. So to begin to find ways to experience that sense of competency. And the flip side of that is when kids are feeling failure and they’re feeling like, especially in a school setting, they don’t feel academically competent, and some kids don’t, and some kids are not going to measure up academically or cognitively to some of their peers. But to know that there are many ways of experiencing competency from, repairing a bike, or mowing lawns, or running a small business, or I often say to my friends who still have teenagers, it doesn’t matter what your kids starts, if they come to our door and they’re starting a business, or if we can do it, we’re going to say yes, because I just feel we all need to be affirming the kids’ competence and that they can do these things.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
It does so much for self-esteem. So the next one is touch me. And this is an interesting one, especially in where we are in culture with regard to just gender revolution, if you can call it this. But touch me is a huge one for neurological development. We all need touch, and a lot of people don’t realize actually our touch needs increase during our adolescent years, we need them more than ever. And yet it seems to couple the time that parents are pulling away. I’ve had many dads ask me, “How can I touch my daughter appropriately when she’s moving through adolescence, as she’s becoming a young woman. That doesn’t feel comfortable with her sitting on my lap, but yet I know she needs touch.” And those are good questions and good things to consider. But our adolescents do need touch.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And if you’ve ever hung out at a youth group or in a high school, or at a game, there is no space between these kids. They are on top of each other. They are slapping each other. They are snuggling. There’s skin to skin contact. And that is because of this need. It’s not intentional, it’s not conscious, I mean, it’s not like they’re thinking I need touch, but they’re living it out most of the time. I will say this too, we all have sort of a barometer. Some people don’t like a lot of touch, some of that has to do with their own personal story and maybe some wounds, but some of it is just their personality, but we do need touch to thrive. So we do see just this increase in even sexual touch that happens during adolescence. And sometimes that is simply because they’re just longing for touch, particularly touched deprived kids.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
So something to think about. And some parents can often, to be blunt, freak out about some of the touch that they see. And I think it is an entry point, a point of entry for great conversations with our kids about these needs and good ways to get them that, and maybe some not so great ways to get those.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. The next one is protect me. And this has to do with that S of safety and just, will you not just physically protect me, but will you emotionally? Am I safe with you? And this is one of the reasons we often see adolescents in maybe some destructive relationships because they feel safety there actually, they feel actually emotionally seen, and they can disregard some of the other things that are going on because for the first time, perhaps, they feel like this person actually knows that inner space of the heart. Our kids are longing for people who are emotionally and physically safe. And you can see the wounds in any adolescent who’s been around long enough, they have been wounded when people have betrayed them, they’ve taken something that they’ve shared and they’ve gone out and shared it with other people and violated their trust. So longing to be safe with parents and in community, as well as we know that God offers the ultimate safety in a relationship with him.
Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And the last one is, remember me. And this again is more older teens. It’s just as teenagers begin to see honestly death and the end of life begin to happen, and many teenagers do see that both in their peers, as well as grandparents, great grandparents, uncles, aunts, dying, they start to think about some existential questions, like what will people remember me for?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
This is sometimes related to calling, and will you remember me? And what impact will I leave on this earth? And so that last one often doesn’t happen until college, but definitely depending on the circumstances, and I share couple stories in my community that happened that really caused those questions to happen, and there’s a lot of pain in that. And so even looking at their friendships and sort of going, how am I going to be remembered, or will you even remember me? Do you even care about me? Especially if they’ve been to a funeral and they hear the words that are said.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
They’re huge, those are huge. So those are eight. And I think it’s helpful to sort of, if all we had as youth workers or parents who work with teens and emergent adults, is these eight on a sticky or in our mind, that when we have these tough moments with our kids or with a youth, and we’re trying to make sense of them, that we can sort of run down the list in our head and go, what could be the driver of this behavior?
Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Jackie Perry:
What’s underneath this? And it may not just be one of these, it may be several. Not to say, I would never say, I think you did that because you just wanted to be heard.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
You know what I was saying? But it’s helpful for me to think about what could it be so that I can curiously begin to engage and compassionately begin to just sort of listen to the story and help them explore. Could it be that this was what they longed for.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Process.
Heidi Wilcox:
Definitely. Because it’s always, it helps of anyone working with teens or interacting with other human beings I think, be more empathetic. If you can kind of be like, you might be behaving this way because you want to be heard, you want to be valued, this is your motivating force. And if I can come alongside you and be like, okay, I see you.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yes. And I think what you’re saying, which is so important, is we don’t have to validate the method or the behavior, but we certainly can validate these longings in a kid’s heart. We can definitely say, you will always need to be affirmed and I get that. You will always need to and long to be seen and that’s important, but maybe there’s a better way, maybe there’s a better way.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Or the pros and cons or the costs and benefits of the way that you’re trying to get seen in your peer group or what have you. And those conversations are powerful conversations for kids to have with an adult because their peers aren’t asking them those things at all, they’re in it with them.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. You talked about this a little bit, but how is the isolation of COVID and doing school and the virtual classroom and not being able to engage in outside events, how has that affected teens specifically, and then how can we as parents help, how can we as friends of people with children, how can we also help?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. I mean, that’s a big question and I don’t have a pretty answer for it. I think my pretty answer, and realize I’m working, when I answer this question, I’m talking about kids I see in counseling. So this population are already in counseling. But I would say I’ve never seen as much of a dip and dark depression that I’ve seen in the last two years. It’s frankly been quite exhausting for we as clinicians. My clients have really battled depression. And that makes sense. I can validate that. This is not how it was supposed to be. And even with masks on which again, I affirm and understand why we’ve needed to do that, it’s not the same. Our implicit communication, which just means the non-verbals that are being shared back and forth between people rely on a full face.
Heidi Wilcox:
Totally.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
It really does. So I have seen a dip in depression. And I think that as caring adults, now that we’re coming out of a lot of the thick of it, anyways, I think we can number one, validate it, and number one, begin to mobilize and help kids find community and connection, whether it’s extracurricular activities, spending time. I’ve often said to kids, if you can go to Starbucks, or the library, or a public place to do your homework these days, and you actually can be productive do that. You need to be around other bodies. And you don’t always have to be connecting with them, but there is a buoying up that comes in that. So I can’t find friends for my kids, but I can create opportunities for them to find friends. I can invite them into my home. I can host things. I can encourage them to participate. I can allow them, even if they don’t deserve it, some social outings, because they need them and they need them beyond me and that’s important, that’s important.
Heidi Wilcox:
As we talk about some of the wounds that happen in spite of parents’ best efforts, I think I’m not sure that any kid can grow up without wounds, even from their parents who have…
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Right.
Heidi Wilcox:
… The best intentions. Why does it seem like that some kids pursue desires even in their wounding in healthy ways, and then some kids are not? Because with that question, I’m kind of thinking of the parent who’s like, I have done everything I know to do. I have tried to do all these things and my kids’ behavior is still this way, or they’re still going down a path that is leading to destruction of some kind.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. And I would say you’re right. There are no perfect parents, and in fact, that’s not the goal. I think that we robbed kids from being able to sort of be propelled or compelled to the foot of the cross when we try to be the in all end all. But I would say you’re not the only person in their lives and wounds do really great damage in our kids. And so a mom or a dad who’s doing an amazing job, maybe married or have been in partnership, or this kid may have been around a teacher, a grandparent, a step dad, a stepmom that really didn’t do it well. And it’s amazing to me how much these wounds really can shape their drive to find these needs somewhere else because of, or to shut down, to try to shut down, well, then I’ll never try to be heard. I’m not going to self express because people don’t want to hear me.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. So it plays a huge part, and I think it’s helpful to understand. There’s great examples in the book I think of kids I’ve worked with that, for example, didn’t feel like people really heard them at home or in their key attachment figures, parents or stepparents, and so finding those people and being desperate to be heard and maybe some healthy ways, but also some healthy ways becomes their MO, they’re just going to do that. But the flip side can happen to, just as much. It’s like, okay, well, I guess I’m not supposed to speak. I guess nobody cares about me, but I’m going to make sure I hear everybody else. And these are the kids that are the best listeners, but they never feel they’re heard. And there’s a lot of these sweet kids out there. I know some.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah. And they just don’t even know how to open up their heart because it actually takes risk taking to do that. But they’ll let other people, and they’re really amazing at doing that. And so it becomes difficult to give and take. And so our counseling relationship becomes corrective in that way and they’re practicing that with me. But I do think these wounds, I talk in the book about the four categories of wound, humiliation, criticism, rejection, abandonment, betrayal, two of those go together. And every kid by the time they’re 12 for even younger is experiencing these wounds. And how they cope with them is not formulaic, it doesn’t always make sense how one kid can experience maybe a betrayal of sorts and seem to be moving through it fine, and doesn’t build up these huge walls or act out in a way to desperately satisfy these needs, where another kid does. And that’s the complexities of being humans and being so uniquely different from one another.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
But it is important for parents to understand, for people who work with kids to understand that wounds play a role, and so knowing the narrative or leaning into the narrative, or the story in a safe way to be able to help them, not so much you, but help them put the pieces together, this pain and how it affects my desires, is really important for me to going back to what you said to do the work, to do it.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, to process through it. Because I think what you’re saying is it’s important to learn how to move through the experience…
Dr. Jackie Perry:
That’s right.
Heidi Wilcox:
… And all the emotions so that it can go back to being integrated…
Dr. Jackie Perry:
That’s right.
Heidi Wilcox:
… Into all of you.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Instead of saying, I shouldn’t need these.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I mean, I remember a time in my life where some of these needs, I was just like, I shouldn’t need these from other people because I have Christ. And he promises to satisfy all of these. And I remember saying this to a counselor many years ago, and he was like, “You have the gospel very wrong.” And he was like, “Yes, Christ perfectly satisfies some of these desires you aren’t getting met, but he really satisfies them in relationship with other human beings.” That’s where you’ll experience him in a different way and in a flesh, fleshest way, embodies way. So it’s really important.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Well, I have one more question that we ask everybody on the show. But before I do that, is there anything else that you want to mention that I didn’t know to ask?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I don’t think so. I feel like I’m often accused of you being a fire hydrant with just like spinning out information. So I hope I [inaudible 00:47:19]…
Heidi Wilcox:
No, I love it.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
… A hydrant in sharing these things. I’m pretty passionate about. I think we covered the basics.
Heidi Wilcox:
[inaudible 00:47:26].
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Oh, I’ve actually thought of one thing, sorry.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
I think, and I touched on this in the book, two things actually, one is, it’s important to know too that our sin nature, our kids sin nature plays a role in these desires being warped and really feeling like that they deserve and can demand these. And deserve, I mean, in a entitlement way, not in a human deserving way.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And so that’s important to remember how much that can warp this process. And the other thing is, boy, I’ve heard this so many times when I speak on this topic, and from people who’ve read the book is, they’ve said, “I need these things. And you’re saying I need to give these to my kids?” And I said, “Yes, begin with you.” Because you need to be able to have a community as a parent, as a worker with kids. You need to have a community, and more importantly, you need to have a rooted relationship with Christ so that you are being filled so that you can fill. And you’ll never be fully full and they’ll never be fully full. But I love when parents say that, even though they’re often saying it with wariness, be because they’re having an aha, oh, maybe when I’m sitting there doing the dishes and I’m feeling angry and irritable, maybe I need to explore what longings in me aren’t being met.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And maybe I’m feeling completely unseen, or unvalidated, or affirmed, or not included.
Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Jackie Perry:
And maybe that’s where I need to do some exploring and maybe some work both in my relationship with Christ as well as community.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, for sure.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s one of the things that I’m learning to do, is explore the why behind what I’m feeling with curiosity instead of, I feel angry, I am not allowed to feel, I’m not allowed to feel this way, but like, what is it trying to tell me?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yes. You have a good counselor.
Heidi Wilcox:
I do.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Yes. Curiosity and compassion. We do need to be curious about what’s going on.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. For sure. Well, we’ll link to your book in the show notes. I read your book before our conversation, I would definitely encourage anyone with kids, working with kids, if you don’t have kids, think you might want kids, pretty much everyone to pick up a copy of your book. So we’ll link that in the show notes. But we do have one question that we ask everyone. Because the show is called the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast, what is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life right now?
Dr. Jackie Perry:
It’s not a new practice, but it’s probably six months old. I did it this morning. I start out my morning, very, very slow. And I actually, on the other side of this computer, I’m sitting on is a mat and a mirror. And I have been meditating. And sometimes that lead right into a 15 or 20 minute yoga practice. But I have really been sitting still and being quiet and centering, integrating centering prayer, but sometimes literally it is just closing my eyes or staring at a spot on the wall and quieting my soul before any day, but before a busy day. Definitely Monday through Friday, it’s just a non-negotiable for me.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
That has helped me thrive. Yeah, for sure.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. That’s beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Perry for sharing today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation and can’t thank you enough for being on the podcast.
Dr. Jackie Perry:
Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Dr. Jackie Perry. I hope you found it as helpful as I did. Although I’m not a teenager, taking a look at these eight core desire have helped me see my own life a little more clearly so that hopefully I can model better behavior to those who are coming behind me. And of course, if you see Dr. Perry or know her, be sure to tell her thanks so much for being on the podcast today and be sure to pick up a copy of her book, Heart Cries of Every Teen: Eight Core Desires That Demand Attention. We’ve linked it in the show notes, so you shouldn’t have any trouble finding it at all. So as always, thank you so much for joining us today and you can follow us in all the places, on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @Asburyseminary. Until next time I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.
