Today on the podcast, I had the real privilege of getting to talk to Dr. Joseph Okello, Professor of Christian Religion in Orlando. Dr. Okello graduated from the University of Kentucky with an M.A. and Ph.D. both in philosophy. He also holds an M.A. and an M.Div. from Asbury Seminary, as well as a bachelor’s in theology from Scott Theological College in Kenya. He is originally from Kenya and has been in the U.S. since 1996. He has authored seven books and is currently working on four more. In today’s conversation, we talk about his calling, how he came to know Jesus and became a pastor and professor, and we talk about the relationship between ethics, philosophy and Christianity and how we can find Jesus in the wilderness moments. You won’t want to miss this episode.
Let’s listen!
*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.
Dr. Joseph Okello, Professor of Philosophy of Christian Religion
Dr. Joseph Okello is Professor of Philosophy of Christian Religion in Orlando, Fla. He relocated to Orlando from the Wilmore Campus in 2011. He graduated from the University of Kentucky with an M.A. and a Ph.D., both in Philosophy. In addition, he holds an M.A. and an M.Div. from Asbury Theological Seminary and a bachelor’s degree in theology from Scott Theological College, Kenya. Although Dr. Okello is originally from Kenya, he has been in the United States since 1996, though, of course, he has returned to Kenya many times. He has authored seven books and is currently working on four more.
Heidi Wilcox, host of the Thrive Podcast
Writer, podcaster, and social media manager, Heidi Wilcox shares stories of truth, justice, healing and hope. She is best known as the host of Spotlight, (especially her blooper reel) highlighting news, events, culturally relevant topics and stories of the ways alumni, current students and faculty are attempting something big for God. If you can’t find her, she’s probably cheering on her Kentucky Wildcats, enjoying a cup of coffee, reading or spending time with her husband, Wes.
Guest Links
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Transcript
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. I’m your host, Heidi E. Wilcox, bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders and people just like you, who are looking to connect where your passion meets the world’s deep need. Today on the podcast I had the real privilege of getting to talk to Dr. Joseph Okello, professor of philosophy of Christian religion in Orlando. Dr. Okello graduated from the University of Kentucky with M.A. and PhD, both in philosophy. He also holds an M.A. and MDiv from Asbury Theological Seminary, as well as a bachelor’s in theology from Scott theological college in Kenya. He is originally from Kenya and has been in the United States since 1996.
Heidi Wilcox:
He has authored seven books and is currently working on four more. In today’s conversation we talk about his calling, how he came to know Jesus and became a pastor and professor. And we also talk about the relationship between ethics, philosophy and Christianity and how we can find Jesus in the wilderness moments. You won’t want to miss this episode. Let’s listen. Dr. Okello, I’m delighted to get to talk to you today. It’s always a privilege to get to talk to some of Asbury’s very own professors.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So, I know you’re on the Florida campus and site down in Orlando. So, the weather is probably a lot different down there than it is up here.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. The sun is shining brightly out there as I speak, I’m in a cold room. I wish I was outside, but that’s alright.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, it’s too bad all the technology can’t transition to outside.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Right. Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
So, I want to give people the opportunity to get to know you as a professor, know your work, but also get to know you as a person a little bit too.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Correct, yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. And so how did you experience your call to ministry or maybe a better way to put that is how did you come to know Jesus? Because I don’t presume that both happened at the same time, but maybe they did.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. Well, I met Christ way back in 1982 when I was a freshman in high school. And our high school experience at that time was basically four years of what they called secondary school as opposed to primary school. And then after four years of secondary school, we would have two years high school. So, but all that was considered high school for one reason or another. And when I was in my first year of high school is when I gave my life to Jesus Christ. Discipleship wasn’t the best thing that happened to me. I wasn’t really well discipled. It was basically a matter of winging it on my own and trying to get my footing. But we did what we could under the circumstances. We did the four things that they normally tell you to do, to pray, read your Bible, fellowship, witness.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Those are the kinds of things I was doing, but I really was not grounded in the faith until 19, I believe it was 1988 when I came face to face with a missionary from Portland, Oregon after my high school, because I completed high school in 1987. And when I was back at home waiting to go to the university or to college, I came face to face with this missionary who was posted to my local church. And he’s the one who discipled me into getting a little more open to the possibility of being in a minister of the gospel. So, we prayed quite a bit. And finally I felt maybe this is the one thing I want to do. And so I enrolled in a Bible school in Kenya or at least applied, and when I applied, finances is always a problem. To pay your way to Bible college or high school or whatever has always been a challenge for any ordinary Kenyan who lives an ordinary life.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, that was a major problem for me. And when I went there on the first day of school, I met with the principal of that school at that time. And I told him I didn’t have enough money to begin my semester’s education. He took the check and basically took some money from the account of the school. And he gave me the money and he said, go back home and get the rest of the fees. This is going to be your transport. I did not think that was very Christian, but I got into the public means of transportation, because that’s the mode of transportation back in Kenya and took the whole day back home. And when my father saw me, he was devastated. So, for two weeks I was not really two, yeah, two weeks. I was just sitting there wondering, so what’s my next step until I got into a lot of praying and fasting about this and on my day four of fasting, I told God, God, this doesn’t seem to be working out.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
What is going on here? And God seemed to ask me the question, well, why do you want to go to Bible school anyway? And I said, I want the degree. And he says, that’s a problem. You are going there because of the credentials. You’re not going there because you’ve even responded to the call. You just thought it was a good idea, but you did not respond to the call. Now, it’s not like I was having a conversation with God, hearing his voice and so forth. But it was just the reflection. And the impression was so strong in me that this was God communicating this idea to me. So, at that moment I confessed and I said, Lord, I’m sorry, I’m sorry that this is the direction I took it. I did not really respond to the call. And so finally, after confessing and praying and I told God, God, if this is really, really, really you, today is Friday.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Oh no, no. Today is Thursday. I’m giving you until Saturday, because by 5:00 PM I don’t see any assurance of financial provision then I’ll assume you’re not calling me to ministry. And I completed my fast. I felt I had the breakthrough I was looking for. And I remember that Saturday, I woke up in the morning and said, God, remember 5:00 PM, 5:00 PM, 5:00 PM. And then by noon nothing seemed to be happening. So, I told God, God, it doesn’t look like this is going to work out, but maybe you’ve sent me something in the mail. So, I went to our local post office box and I wanted to see if there was anything in the mail that said that we have a check for you to pay for your Bible college education. I went and opened that mailbox. And what I found was a water bill. So, I said, okay.
Heidi Wilcox:
The exact opposite.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
This is an insult upon injury here. And then I remembered, hey, wait a minute. The missionary that had counseled me into Bible school education was actually out of town and he seems to have returned. So, I decided to take a walk to his house. It was a walking distance of about a mile and a half. So, I walked all the way right up to where this missionary lived and he looks at me and he says, Joseph, what are you still doing here? You’re supposed to be in Bible school. Look, get ready on Monday, I am taking you back to school. Don’t worry about the funds. I will take care of it. And I looked at my watch. It was 4:59.
Heidi Wilcox:
Not a minute too soon.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yep. Yep. He’s never too late. He’s never too early. He doesn’t come at the 11th hour. He comes right on time. And that’s how I responded to the call, because there’s a difference between being attracted to the call and actually saying, yes, God, this is something I want to do.
Heidi Wilcox:
Say more about that. Because I think maybe a lot of people are like you were and are attracted and trying to follow. How do we move from the attraction to saying yes?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. If you feel that you are having that attraction, it is important that you have that conversation with God and tell God, God, if you’re calling me, I am ready to respond. I want to hear your voice. Tell me in some way, usually, and I think the best way is through his word, because I remember that day after I had made the yes response to God … Now I’m not the kind of person who opens the Bible randomly. In fact, those of my colleagues who are listening to this will probably, they’ll probably have a fit when I say this, because you’re supposed to do the observation, interpretation, application, those kinds of stuff. And you study the Bible systematically. But on this day I was not even trained in biblical studies or inductive Bible study. As soon as I responded to that call, I just opened the Bible at random.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And my finger fell on Philippians two verse 14, which says it is him who makes you to respond. For it is God who works in you to act and respond according to his divine purpose. To me that was a direct speech from God. It was like God are saying, yes, this is what I want you to do. So, what I’m saying here is this, listen to the voice of God as you read scripture. And once you get the impression that God is calling, just say, yes. It helps to zero in or at least to nail the date when you did respond to the Christian message. The more you run away, the more that call will pursue you. And so it is either you respond now or you respond later and I think the sooner you to it, the better.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, for sure.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Because I ran away from this call for a while and God never let, he never let go of me.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
He just kept on getting a hold of me. And I realized, but I wasn’t too old at that time. I was only about 23 years old, I believe, when I finally responded to that call. But I felt the call when I was about 19. So, I decided I better do it now rather than later.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Sometimes I think it takes some discernment to know that you’re being called. I mean, because sometimes do you think you were actually running or just needed time to fully understand what you [crosstalk 00:11:39]-
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, I know that I was running away. I did not like the pastoral ministry, because pastors were poor people in my home country, at least in the setting in which I came, grew up. They did not seem to be the kind of people that would take care of their families well. They did not seem to be the kind of people who are paid well. And I said, no, I don’t want that lifestyle. I don’t want it. So, I know that I was running away from that call. I knew that it was placed on me. And in fact my Christian leaders in high school kept on telling me, if God is calling you, you need to respond. You need to respond. And I’m like, why don’t you guys respond? If you really think God is calling me? What about you guys? I mean, he’s supposed to be calling you too. So, I knew I was running away from God.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Okay. Okay. So, what a pivotal moment of faith that you had realizing that God not only calling you, was going to provide when you said yes. As you look back on your journey so far, how does that moment influence you as you think about God’s faithfulness?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, the surprising thing is, had I not responded to the call, I would not be at Asbury. I just wouldn’t.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really? Yeah.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And I know where I would’ve been. I was planning to serve and work at Barclays bank in one of the cities in Kenya. And I know that I did the interview. I know that I passed the interview. It was just two subjects that I was tested on. I was tested on my math skills and I was tested on my English skills and I knew I had nailed all the questions. I knew I had nailed all the answers to the questions, both in math and in English. And I counter checked, double checked. And I knew that I got a hundred percent in all of them and I still failed.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, I knew that this had to be God. And I blamed him for failing, but God seemed to be having better plans for me. And I’m glad today that I failed those interviews or that interview. I just failed. And I had no explanation why, but looking back, I knew that God’s faithfulness can sometimes show up in failure.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
When you fail something, it’s not that God is denying you everything in life. It’s just that he’s preparing you for something better. Now I’m not saying that, that’s the case in every situation. I’m just saying that in some instances, when you experience a certain type of failure, God is preparing you for something better. Think of the case of Joseph. I mean, he was thrown in a cistern and that seemed to be the epitome of failure. And then he was sold as a slave. But that was just a demonstration of God’s faithfulness to the dream he had revealed to Joseph. Or you think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego. When they were thrown in the fiery furnace, it looked like God abandoned them. But he was right there with them in the fiery furnace. It was a demonstration of his faithfulness. Or Daniel in the lions’ den. Sometimes in our lives, if indeed we are committed to who God is and what he does for us, those moments of failures are really faithfulness in disguise.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s so interesting. And I guess it just takes continuing to be faithful to God to realize what kind of failure that that is.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. Yeah. And I say that because quite frankly, I don’t like going through those times. So, I’m not saying that those moments are passed and gone. They’re behind me. I’ve still, I’ve experienced them. Even now with my wife having to battle cancer, it’s still a demonstration of God’s faithfulness even through those battles. So, I still see it. I still see him at work. So, God’s faithfulness will be powerfully underscored in the lives of those who remain committed to him, even in moments of apparent failures.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I appreciate those words very much.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, thank you. Yeah. It comes from some, not a lifetime of learning, but just that experience with the world and how it is and how God has designed it.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So, you went to Bible college because of God’s provision. And then what happened next?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, I studied theology for four years and it was rigorous in the sense that they were teaching us as if that was the only education we would ever get for ministry. So, we were exposed to all sorts of Bible studying and theological training, including, oh my goodness, including 16 credit hours of Greek exegesis, well, 16 credit hours of Greek grammar, 16 credit hours of Greek exegesis. We got to a point. I no longer have it as much as I did then, we got to a point where we could read the Greek new Testament almost as fluently as we could read the Bible in our native languages. We got to that point. But again, when you don’t use it, you lose it.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s for sure.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, we did that. And then after that I pastored a church in Nairobi as an assistant pastor, but I was really the youth pastor for two years. And it was a 3000 member church that worshiped in a wooden barn. The walls were made of wood. If you know of how the horse barns in Kentucky look like. Especially as you’re driving into Wilmore from Lexington and how they look like and how this … That’s how the sanctuary looked like. In fact, a portion of that sanctuary is still there today. It’s still there. In fact the whole building, not just a portion of it, it’s still there today. I was pastoring there. And then when they knew that I was feeling the urge to further my studies at Asbury, they stepped in and raised, this was in 1996, $6,000 at that time.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And funded my education. Yeah, absolutely. And thankfully at Asbury, I’d received what they call an international student scholarship, which took care of my tuition. So, they took care of my room and board and I came to Asbury as a student in 1996. And I studied in Asbury. I got the MDiv from Asbury and those times they were also offering the M.A. in church music. Okay. So, I got the M.A. in church music as well.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, what interesting pairing.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah, because I knew what I wanted to do back home. I knew that I needed the musical skills to help with the music in my church, but I also needed the theological skills to continue with the theological ministry there. After my studying at Asbury, completed it, I went back to Kenya to minister back to that same church and had a powerful ministry there. But before I left, one of my professors here at Asbury, he’s now gone. He’s at Houston Baptist University. He challenged me to pursue a PhD in philosophy. And I said, “I don’t want to do that. I just want to go back home.” He said, “No, no, no, Joseph, you’ll be wasting your mind if you don’t get a PhD in philosophy, you need to do it.” So, I applied to different schools and all those Christian schools that applied to either turned me down or could not give me a scholarship. And so he said, “Why not try the University of Kentucky?”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Go Cats.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, yeah. I applied to the philosophy program at the University of Kentucky and they admitted me, which took me by surprise. They admitted me. And when they admitted me, when they gave me the admission, it was full everything, full tuition, full room and board, teaching assistantship. But the letter came when I was in Kenya, I had gone to Kenya. I wasn’t really planning on coming back. So, when they sent me that letter, I was like, oh, looks like I’m going back to the United States. So, August of 2021? No, no, no, no, August of 2020. Yeah. I get my dates mixed up.
Heidi Wilcox:
It’s easy to do.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
2020. Yeah, august of 2021 I flew back to the United States and started my studies at the University of Kentucky for PhD in philosophy. And I completed that in 2007.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, okay. So, 2001 then.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
It was 2001.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, okay. You were saying 2021. And I was like, oh wow that’s-
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Not 2021. I’m sorry, 2001, 2001. And I completed it in 2007. Yeah, my mind is racing right now as I’m talking to you because I’m-
Heidi Wilcox:
You’re totally fine. I was thinking, wow, that was a really fast PhD.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, that would be phenomenal if someone did it in such a short time.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
So, one of the things I’m hearing in your story, in addition to the … because I’m hearing again about kind of the perceived failure as you apply to different schools and the ones you thought would be the right answer. None of them accepted you.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
None of them.
Heidi Wilcox:
None of them, which I find so interesting.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. And they were the Christian schools, because I thought that they would admit me with open arms and they said, sorry, you really don’t fit our style here. And the ones that admitted me would not offer me the scholarships. So, I said, I don’t know that God has opened that door. And when you are looking at that issue of scholarships, from an African perspective, we don’t have a lot of money to be able to pay someone through a PhD program. So, to me having a scholarship was what I thought would be God’s way of showing me that he needed me.
Heidi Wilcox:
The confirmation.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. So, he confirms it in a totally secular school. And that’s where I went. Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. How does God speak to you? Is that how God speaks to you normally just by opening, closing doors? How do you know that this is the way you should go?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
After a lifetime, after a considerable time of prayer and asking God and telling God what I want, then I wait to see how things unfold, how they unfold to me is how I interpret God to be working. God has spoken to me through scripture, at least three different times. It gave me no doubt whatsoever that he was communicating to me at least three times. One of them being that time that he pointed me, that God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose in Philippians, I believe is 2:13 or 2:14. I don’t quite remember exactly that passage. And then there are instances where I have, now this may sound a little spooky, but in an African setting, it is perfectly normal because in Africa we are very open, a little more open to the supernatural than in the United States. I have actually felt a physical nudge from God to get up and go pray.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yes, that happened as recently as 2020, April of 2020, when I was telling God, God, I need to be strong enough. I need you to help me to get up and pray in the morning. And I prayed that prayer for like about four months. And this was at night, because I normally have my devotions at night. And then it’s like God was saying, okay, you’ve asked for it. So, I felt a nudge on my right shoulder as I was asleep. And I got up and looked to see if my wife did it. She was still asleep. I looked around to see if my son, my 10 year old son, he was nine at that time. Well, he was eight at that time, to see if he is the one who was trying to get me up because he needed something, nothing.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
There was no indication that he was anywhere near and then a strong in my heart, go pray. So, I said, God, you win. So, I got up and walked to my prayer closet, which is our laundry room. And I normally joke when I share this. And I say on one side my clothes are washed away in the laundry room. On the other side of my sins are washed away in the laundry room. But yes, I experienced a little bit of the varieties in which God speaks to his people through the word, through circumstances and directly to me.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And that was one of the times, the other two times I have, I’ve actually literally, and I’m telling you this without kidding, I’ve literally heard his voice and it was a voice of rebuke. And this was way back in high school when I was about 17 years of age. I remember that as clearly as if it was yesterday, when God said, I am the Lord, your God and I’m asking you to pull up your socks in terms of your morning prayers. You need to be a little more determined to … intentional, that’s the word. You need to be a little more intentional in getting up to go and pray in the morning.
Heidi Wilcox:
Ah, yeah.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And he said your evening prayers are great, but your morning prayers-
Heidi Wilcox:
Your morning prayers.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, please get up and go pray. I was like, oh wow. And I was in tears, but rebellious me. I did not quite get up. I’m not a morning person. And I just could not get up to go pray that time. And for one reason or another, but when I was in Bible college, I did that quite a bit. I would wake up at three, pray from three until six and then go back to bed for an hour and then get up and begin the day’s studying and reading and so forth.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Wow. So, then you came to UK, and you had every intention to go back to Kenya?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Correct.
Heidi Wilcox:
How did you then become a professor at Asbury Seminary?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Oh, long story. But this is what happened. When I was at UK, I was working on my dissertation and in my dissertation I was defending the doctrine of creation against the theory of evolution. And the panelists, at least three of them were naturalists. One was and still is a Christian. And another one was, and still is a Christian, I believe. The naturalists obviously disagreed with my conclusions, but they passed me unanimously. They said, we disagree with you, but you have put your arguments in such a watertight way that the premises logically support your conclusion. And that’s all we need. So, they passed me unanimously. Now my wife was still in school. She was trying to complete her bachelor’s degree, which she did. And she also was trying to complete her master’s at Eastern Kentucky university. And she was wrestling with it. Asbury Seminary knew that I was wrestling with my PhD and I had quite a number of professors who knew me and they said, “Hey, while you’re still waiting for your wife to complete your education, come and teach for us.”
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And I was teaching on a part-time basis. So, I taught on the Wilmore campus and I would also fly down to the Orlando campus to teach. And then while still waiting, I was named the visiting assistant professor on the Kentucky campus. And I did that for three years. And then the philosophy professor on the Wilmore campus left. And so they said, “Well, we need you here to fill that position as an assistant professor. At that time Leslie Andrews was the provost, Dr. Leslie Andrews. She invited me along with Dr. Ellsworth Kalas, who was the president at that time. And then as I was completing my gig, lack of a better term, as a visiting assistant professor, the Orlando campus had a position open up for an ethics professor and a philosophy professor at the same time. So, I was invited to interview for that position and I submitted my applications.
Heidi Wilcox:
So, another open door.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I submitted my application and passed the interview. And I was appointed as the visiting professor now. No, not visiting, but as the assistant professor of philosophy and ethics on the Orlando campus. And that was in 2011.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. Well, I’m very glad that that invitation happened and that you chose to accept it.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. So, forever grateful, forever grateful. At that time, Dr. Tim Tennent had become the president of Asbury Seminary.
Heidi Wilcox:
Definitely. So, I’m sure you’re the classes that you teach kind of rotate around, or maybe they don’t, but kind of what classes, what are the themes of your classes?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, I mostly teach philosophy of religion, but I also teach ethics, Christian ethics. In fact, I teach Christian ethics on this campus in Orlando. And then more recently I’ve been teaching contemporary theology and basic Christian doctrine.
Heidi Wilcox:
Interesting.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, yeah, I’ve taught those three and so my area is in philosophy. That’s my area of study, but I’ve branched out into theology, because I do have an MDiv. I do have a [crosstalk 00:32:02]. And then I wrestled with the doctrine of creation for my PhD. Philosophy of religion came in quite handy.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. For sure. I want to talk more about philosophy and ethics, but I’m also curious about what contemporary theology is.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, contemporary theology is for lack of a better way of expressing it, is to look at how the basic aspects of Christian doctrine have received variant interpretations by contemporary theologians, such as Wolfhart Pannenberg, such as Karl Barth, such as Paul Tillich. Those guys are big names in theological circles. And even African Theologians such as John S. Mbiti. You look at how they look for example, at the doctrine of revelation, the doctrine of the virgin birth, the doctrine of creation, the doctrine of salvation, eschatology, each of them present a different understanding, a varied understanding, or a slightly varied understanding from the normal in which we look at theology. So, for example, you and I would say the Bible is the word of God. Karl Barth would come along and say, no, the Bible becomes the word of God when it speaks to you. So, you look at those different interpretations of theology and you say, okay, let us see how this thinker deals with it, as opposed to say how Augustine dealt with it.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Why is it so important to understand how a variety of thinkers look at theology and deal with scripture?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, because some of them have kind of deviated from the standard understanding. And when they deviate from that standard understanding you want to be sure that what they say does not derail your understanding. It’s important to know that. What’s his name? Wolfhart Pannenberg for example, did not necessarily believe in the virgin birth, but he really did believe in the resurrection of Jesus. So, you look at that and you say, okay, I believe in the virgin birth. So, his failure to believe in that, what does it mean for me? And how should I deal with this? So, contemporary theology looks at all those, most of them, not all of them, but it looks at those thinkers and it tries to point out the areas that may be different or sometimes remain radically different from what we understand it. Paul Tillich, for example, says, “God does not exist, because when you say God exists, you are limiting him. God is beyond existence.” And you’re like, what on earth does that mean?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Why is it so important in our everyday lives to have a rooted understanding of theology?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Oh, well, I think the answer to that question is obvious. If your theology is messed up and your ecclesiology is messed up and your Christology is messed up, then you are going to be leading people in the wrong way. Scripture reminds us that we, teachers of the word, will be judged with more strictness, because we have been entrusted with the truths of the faith. And it is important for us to sustain those truths with accuracy. The apostle Paul in the book of Galatians comes with an even stricter warning. He says, “If anyone teaches a gospel, other than the one we proclaimed to you, let him be eternally condemned.” Now that’s scary.
Heidi Wilcox:
That is scary.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
That is very, very scary. So, I want to be careful as a teacher of the gospel that I present it in the best accuracy possible.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. For sure. For sure. Yeah. So, one of your primary focuses, as we’ve already said, is philosophy and ethics.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yes.
Heidi Wilcox:
What is the relationship between those two things and the Christian faith?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Oh my goodness. There’s a strong relationship in all of them, but let me, first of all, point out that we teach Christian ethics here at Asbury Seminary from a sociological perspective and not from a philosophical perspective.
Heidi Wilcox:
What is the difference sociological versus a philosophical?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, let’s begin with a philosophical perspective. Ethics is philosophy and philosophy is ethics. Various thinkers have wrestled with it beginning with Plato who said, ethics comes from reason and the highest good is the good itself. And you go to Aristotle who says ethics comes from reason, but the highest good is happiness. And then you go to people like Epicurus, who says, no, it doesn’t really come from reason. Ethics comes from pleasure. And the highest good is [ataraxia 00:37:40]. Or you go to Epictetus who was Stoic. He says, no, no, no, no, epic doesn’t come from pleasure or from reason. It comes from the will, from the human will. And the highest good is self discipline. And Augustine comes into the scene and says, no, no, no, no, no, no ethics comes from God. And the highest good is eternal life in heaven.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Or you think of someone like Thomas Aquinas, who believes that ethics comes from reason like Aristotle. But then this reason is the one that has been endowed upon us by God and the highest good is contemplation of God. And then you go to people like Hobbs, who says, no, no, no, no, no. Ethics is based on self interest. And the highest good is that we should have a commonwealth that puts us together so that we would yield our rights to this Commonwealth. And provided that once we’ve yielded our rights to this Commonwealth, everybody else is willing to do so. And then it promotes peace. And then you have John Stewart Mill who says ethics comes from pleasure. The highest good is pleasure. You have Immanuel Kant who says ethics comes from reason. The highest good is the Goodwill. And then you have Karl Marx who says, no, no, no, no, you guys are all wrong.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Ethics is really ideological. It is means of the haves to maintain the status quo of class distinctions between the haves and the have nots. That is from a philosophical perspective, because you are looking at it from the point of view of how these philosophers understood the good life to be. Friedrich Nietzsche asked the question, what if what we believe to be good today is really bad and what we believe to be evil today was really good. He thinks that we Christians have twisted the values, but that’s not the way it was in the original Greek setting. So, you have all these philosophical thinkers that come at it. Now you’re looking at it from the sociological perspective, you’re looking at the question of community, how do we build a coherent Christian community in our ethics lifestyle, as people of the book, as people who get their marching orders from the Bible.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, it is from that sociological perspective that we look at it and we build our Christian ethics from scripture. We build our Christian ethics from the old Testament and the new Testament otherwise it would cease to be Christian. And so as a community of believers, how do we live our lives in a way that promotes the goals for which Christ placed upon us while he was here on earth and fundamentally through the great commission? What is it that we ought to do in order to cultivate the Christian community in order to cultivate the Christian culture? So, we are not approaching it anymore from a sociological, I mean, from a philosophical perspective, but we are approaching it from a sociological perspective.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
But they do have points of intersection. There’s no question about that. They do have points of intersection, but I can tell you that when I was studying ethics in the University of Kentucky, our comprehensive exams were basically on two fronts. One, on what is called metaphysics and epistemology. But on the second front, it’s what was called value theory, namely ethics. So, ethics is fundamentally philosophical, but at Asbury we don’t teach it from a philosophical perspective.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I think I read once that we make, I don’t know, 30 some thousand decisions a day. So, it’s important to know the ethics behind or the why.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yes, it is. It is. And there are three broad ways in which we make ethical decisions, we make them deontologically. In other words, we ask ourselves, what is our rule? What are our rules? What rules do we subscribe to? What is our duty? What are the principles behind the decisions that we are going to make? What rule are we obeying? Obviously it’s the biblical law for us as Christians, or we ask ourselves what sorts of consequences will follow when I make this decision. So, that is called consequentialism. What sorts of consequences will follow when I make this decision? So, it is in a certain sense results based.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And then there’s another one, which is also teleological. The question is, what kind of person am I supposed to be? What sorts of character am I supposed to engender or inculcate in my life? So, you have those three ways in which we make ethical decisions, deontologically, consequentially, and virtue ethically. And those play themselves in and within our communities. What resonates with me, even though it may be quite relativistic is the virtue ethics perspective. Because I come from Africa and African’s belief it takes a village to raise a child. And it is the village that helps to cultivate the right virtues. That’s the belief. But then the question is then, you go further than that and ask, what are those virtues fundamentally anchored in? That’s how far we go, we ask ourselves, do we just look at what humans arbitrarily decide as the good, or is that good anchored in something bigger than itself?
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, that’s interesting.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Those are the are kinds of questions we wrestle with from an African perspective.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow. That is very interesting.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yeah. Yeah. We wrestle with those in many ways, but yeah, so they find intersections. They do intersect whether it’s ethics or philosophy. Look at it this way. Ethics is fundamentally about good and for that matter, evil. And when you’re dealing with good and evil you have to deal with a standard that helps you decide what is good and what is evil. But when you immediately pose it the question of a standard or the question of a law, you not ask yourself, who is the law giver.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
It is in that sense that ethics and theology are linked.
Heidi Wilcox:
Interesting. Interesting.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
At least that’s how I see it anyway.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes, for sure. So, you’ve written seven books, with two that we want to be sure to talk about today is Wilderness Moments: How To Live Victoriously Through Them and Evil and Pain. And you’ve told me that you’re currently working on four more books.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Yes. The one I’m working on is the Hiddenness of God, which is complete, it’s you’re sitting in my computer here. And then the other one that I’m working on is called A Theocentric Account of Truth. The third one that I’m working on is called the Alethic Ontological Argument for The Existence of God. And the fourth one is The Philosophy Of John Wesley.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh wow. A wide variety of topics in your current and future writings.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, I’m working on those four. And I don’t know when I’ll have them completed, but that’s what I’m wrestling with right now.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Wow. That is interesting also. I’m curious about, because both your books, the ones that I just mentioned, Wilderness Moments and Evil and Pain seem to kind of deal with maybe some of the failure topics that we talked about earlier in the podcast.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, Evil and Pain. And I think I misled you earlier on when I told you that the books I’ve given you are all on the popular level, Evil and Pain is on the academic level.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Okay.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And I’m trying to address what I think is a misconception of evil within materialistic, by materialistic I’m talking about naturalists who do not believe that humans have a soul. So, I’m trying to deal with the account, a misconception of evil amongst those materialistic naturalists, because they reduce evil to pain.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, okay.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And they seem, especially the utilitarians, they seem to equate evil and pain. Now I’m arguing that evil is actually a different category of “thing”, if it is a thing, from pain, because there’s some pains that could be good for you. And there are some pleasures that are bad for you. So, when you equate evil and pain, you are making a mistake there. It’s different. And for that reason, I conclude that the problem of evil is really very different from the problem of pain.
Heidi Wilcox:
Interesting.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
That is my conclusion. The problem of pain is of a different variety than the problem of evil if we get very strict with our terminology. But that’s the nature of that book. The other one Wilderness Moments is based on Deuteronomy eight beginning verse two, stopping at verse five, where I used to be able to quote it verbatim. So, I’ll try it. And if I get stuck, please forgive me. It says, “Remember how the Lord, your God, led you the desert these 40 years to humble you and to test you, to see what was in your heart, whether you would obey his commandments, he humbled you causing you to hunger and then to teach you that man shall not live by bread alone.”
Dr. Joseph Okello:
“He humbled you, causing you to hunger, then feeding you with mana, which neither you nor your parents had known, to teach you that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Your clothes did not soil, you did not wear out, your feet did not swell, nor then that as the Lord, your God disciplines. As a father disciplines his son, so the Lord, your God disciplines you.” I got a fuzzy brain there for a moment there. I just haven’t had my coffee for today.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yes, yes.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
But that’s how it runs. And in that book I detail various instances of wildernesses that we all go through. And a major one that I highlight especially was my wife’s bout with cancer. I was writing that book or working on the American edition in the infusion center with my wife lying there, receiving the cocktail of chemotherapy. And I’m sitting on the side, typing that book. Very, very difficult time for my wife, obviously, for me as well. And I just felt like I was in the wilderness. I was in the wilderness, because if you remember, when the nation of Israel was walking out of Egypt and they passed through the Red Sea, at the end of it, at the end of after crossing the Red Sea, the Bible makes a very interesting statement. I believe it’s in the of Exodus 13.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
I may be mistaken about my scripture there. If you go toward the end of 13, God makes an interesting comment. The Bible says that God decided not to have them pass through the shorter route into the promised land, because they would face adversity and be discouraged and want to go back to Egypt. So, he decided to take them through a longer route through the wilderness. Now, I understand from Bible geography and if you’ve been to the holy land, you’ll probably know this, that the distance from that edge of the Red Sea to the promised land. If you walked in a determined way, all the way up to that place, it would probably take you eight to maybe 15 days if you just kept going.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
But God took them through a route that got them into the promised land after 40 years. And so I asked myself, wow, why would God do that? The answer is found in Deuteronomy eight. He wanted to humble them. He wanted to test them. He wanted to teach them and he wanted to tame them. And that took 40 years. So, I’m sitting there in the infusion center asking God, God, I know you can heal my wife directly, but you’ve decided to take her through the route of chemotherapy. So, what lesson in humility are you teaching me here? I mean, what is it about me that you are humbling and you’re teaching me obviously, but you’re also testing me not to reveal to you what is in my heart, but to reveal to me what is in my heart, because you know already what is in my heart and where am I in need of being disciplined?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Because you’ve said as a father disciplines his son, so the Lord, your God disciplines you. So, each chapter in that book is an explication of what it is to be humbled by God when you’re going through the wilderness, chapter one. Chapter two is an explication of what it is to be tested by God when you’re going through the wilderness. Chapter three is an implication of what it is to taught by God when you’re going through the wilderness. In chapter four, really sections, not chapters, but sections, section four is an explication of what it means to be tamed or for that matter, disciplined by God when you go through the wilderness.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah, the wilderness isn’t fun at all. And I don’t think I like [crosstalk 00:54:13]-
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Never has been. Never has been.
Heidi Wilcox:
In those experiences, I’m like I … is there a way to avoid that? But as I’m thinking about the Israelites’ experience and the wilderness, I’m also, I think about the hardship, but I think about the mana and the provision of water and the, I’m forgetting the other things, the pillar of fire, the guidance and all of that too.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
And it’s interesting how one thing we must never forget is this, God was with them every step of the way in the wilderness. And as I was sitting there in the infusion center, it’s like God was reminding, he was reminding me, Hey, son, I’m with you through this. I am walking with you through this. Just like he was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace, just like he sent an angel to Daniel in the lions’ den. And just like he showed up when Job needed him to show up in the book of Job. He is with you. He’s with me. He’s with us in the midst of our pains and sorrows and hurts in our wilderness. So, I do make that point in the book.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Thank you.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Amen. Yes. Amen.
Heidi Wilcox:
Well, we’re out of time. So, before I ask you the one question that we ask everyone who comes on the podcast, is there anything else you’d like to mention that I didn’t know to ask you?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Well, no, I think you’ve pretty much covered all the bases, I think. And all I can say is thank you for allowing me and inviting me to do this. I just never know what to say during a podcast, unless I asked the right questions. I would never do my own podcast. So, thank you so much for the invitation. I really appreciate that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Well, you’re welcome. And thank you for saying yes. And I really love getting to hear portions of people’s stories. I consider a real gift that people are willing to share them with me so that we can share it with a wider audience.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Amen.
Heidi Wilcox:
So, thank you so much.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Thank you. God bless you so much. Thank you.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. So, the one question we ask everyone is because the show is called the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. What is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life right now?
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Oh, without question is my moment with God, without question. If I did not have that, I would be completely unarmed in my teaching. Daniel prayed three times a day. And because of his praying three times a day, God gave him the wisdom that surpassed everybody in his time. And I believe that if I have to have any wisdom in my class lectures for my students, I have to pray before the Lord. I have to go before him on my knees and ask for that wisdom every day. I pray for it, not just praying for it so as to teach, but even for my I ministry every Sunday when I’m preaching, I ask for that wisdom. And without it I would be totally unarmed. I would be completely empathetic. I asked for wisdom when I was defending my dissertation, because I knew that without that I would not pass that test.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
So, the one thing that I believe makes me thrive is when God comes to my rescue after I have prayed and I never … I make sure, I try to make sure that I have my two times of prayer in the evening and 3:00 AM in the morning with the Lord and it can take an hour. It can take two hours, it can take half an hour. It depends on how the Lord wants to engage me. And the other thing that I do, I don’t even know that I should mention this because Jesus says it’s supposed to be a secret. But I try to, I have my Fridays where I abstain from all sorts of foods. I fast and I just have water, just to make sure that everything that’s coming that weekend and the following week is already surrendered to the Lord. I guard those times very religiously. Yes.
Heidi Wilcox:
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share with us today.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Thank you.
Heidi Wilcox:
I have so enjoyed our conversation.
Dr. Joseph Okello:
Amen. God bless you so much. Thank you.
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Dr. Joseph Okello. Isn’t he a gift, you guys? I hope you enjoyed our time together as much as I did. And if you see Dr. Okello, be sure to tell him thanks for being on the podcast today. As always, you can follow Asbury Seminary in all the places on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, at @AsburySeminary. Until next time I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.
