Today on the podcast, I got to talk to Major Andrew Murray, current Asbury Seminary student and officer in the Salvation Army. Andrew has been a Salvation Army pastor since ordination in 1985. For 37 years, he has served as a congregational pastor both in the US and in Southern Africa. He started a Masters in Pastoral Counseling at Asbury Seminary in the Fall of 2019 when his wife had major spine surgery, and he took a year of medical sabbatical to help her. He found the classes at Asbury Seminary to be a form of self-care, family, and distraction.
In today’s conversation, we talk about his calling to the Salvation Army, his current role and how he is finding God in the midst of this season. Let’s listen!
*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.
Major Andrew Murray, Officer in the Salvation Army
Major Andrew Murray has been a Salvation Army pastor since ordination in 1985. For 37 years, he has served as a congregational pastor both in the US and in Southern Africa. He started a Masters in Pastoral Counseling at Asbury Seminary in the Fall of 2019 when his wife had major spine surgery, and he took a year of medical sabbatical to help her. He found the classes at Asbury Seminary to be a form of self-care, family, and distraction.
Heidi Wilcox, host of the Thrive Podcast
Writer, podcaster, and social media manager, Heidi Wilcox shares stories of truth, justice, healing and hope. She is best known as the host of Spotlight, (especially her blooper reel) highlighting news, events, culturally relevant topics and stories of the ways alumni, current students and faculty are attempting something big for God. If you can’t find her, she’s probably cheering on her Kentucky Wildcats, enjoying a cup of coffee, reading or spending time with her husband, Wes.
Show Notes
Guest Links
Transcript
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. I’m your host, Heidi E. Wilcox, bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders and people just like you, who are looking to connect where your passion meets the world’s deep need. Today I got to talk to Major Andrew Murray, current Asbury Seminary student and officer in the Salvation Army. Andrew has been a Salvation Army pastor since ordination in 1985. For 37 years he has served as a congregational pastor, both in the U.S. and in Southern Africa. He started a master’s in pastoral counseling in the fall of 2019 when his wife had major spine surgery and he took a year of medical sabbatical to help her.
Heidi Wilcox:
He found the classes at Asbury to be a form of self-care, family and distraction. In today’s conversation we talk about his calling to the Salvation Army, his current role, and how he is finding God in the midst of this season. Let’s listen.
Heidi Wilcox:
Major Andrew Murray, I am delighted to get to talk to you today. So you’re a current student at the Seminary, a Salvation Army officer. Thank you so much for making the time to talk to me.
Major Andrew Murray:
It is my pleasure to be with you today.
Heidi Wilcox:
So I have to ask, your name is Andrew Murray. Do you ever get confused with the tennis star?
Major Andrew Murray:
No, but I do get confused with the Christian author.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
So Andrew Murray wrote 28 books and I often get asked, did I write them? Now my-
Heidi Wilcox:
You say yes, of course?
Major Andrew Murray:
Well, he died a 100 years ago.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh.
Major Andrew Murray:
So if I was the author of that, then I’d be a lot older than I am now.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, that’s funny. That’s funny.
Major Andrew Murray:
But I have given away the books as Christmas gifts.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s really funny. I love your sense of humor.
Major Andrew Murray:
Without any comment, just I’ve given them out to, yes.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s funny. So how did you become a member of the Salvation Army?
Major Andrew Murray:
I grew up in the Salvation Army. My parents were Salvation Army officers. My grandparents, and even a great grandmother was a Salvation Army officer. So for many generations my family’s been in the Salvation Army and has been Salvation Army pastors. My great-grandmother served in India and died serving as a Salvation Army officer in India. My mother’s father, my grandfather served as a Salvation Army officer in China and Iceland and Africa, served all over the world as a Salvation Army officer. My parents served as Salvation Army officers here in the United States.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so I grew up as a child. The Salvation Army was my church. It was what I knew, and a Salvation Army officer was something I never wanted to be.
Heidi Wilcox:
I understand that. So since you never wanted to do it, how did you start doing it?
Major Andrew Murray:
Well, I always wanted to be a military officer. And that’s from a very young age I was just fascinated with the military and I wanted to be a military officer. And as a matter of fact, for junior high school and high school I went away to a boarding school, to a military school.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Major Andrew Murray:
My parents were not happy about out the idea. It kind of happened by chance. My dad was a Rotarian and in New Jersey and he said to me one day, “Andrew, would you like to skip school and come and see a real general at Rotary Club today?” So I was a fifth grader, the idea of skipping school and meeting a real general from the U.S. Army was very cool to me. So I said, okay. So I went to the Rotary Club meeting with my dad. I sat there and this general, his name was General Roberts, he was there and he had just become the superintendent of this military school. And he was actually out recruiting for kids to attend his school. And afterwards I went up and talked to him and my dad told me, “Don’t think about going there because a year’s tuition is more than we make. And so it’s just not going to happen.”
Major Andrew Murray:
And so I went up and I talked to the General Roberts and he said, “We’re looking for boys just like you.” And I said, I, and so I wrote to him, he gave me his business card. And as a fifth grader I wrote to him without my parents knowing, and I said to him, “I really want to come to your school. My parents told me that we can’t afford to come, but I want to go to your military school.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
So, that was as fifth grader.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. You knew what you wanted. That’s awesome.
Major Andrew Murray:
I knew what I wanted and so apparently he got in touch with my parents after he received the letter. And he got in touch with my parents and my parents gave him permission to talk to me again. And he got back in touch with me and said, “If you really want to come to this school, we’ll find scholarships for you to come.”
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s awesome.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so I went to New York Military Academy and through junior high school and high school. And when I graduated from high school, I went through ROTC to become a U.S. Army officer. And that’s what I wanted to do with my life. And that was my focus and that’s what I wanted to do. I loved it.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So how did you get from one army to the other army?
Major Andrew Murray:
So, I always appreciated what my parents did.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
But as a teenager, quite honestly, truthfully, I wasn’t a Christian. I attended church because that was what was expected in our household, but I didn’t have a relationship with God. And I had no desire to have a relationship with God. And I had no desire to do all of that hard work that my dad did and I watched my parents do growing up. They sacrificed of themselves to help other people. And quite honestly, I didn’t see the point of that. And so, when I was doing the ROTC thing and a cadet to become a U.S. Army officer, God got hold of me one day. And he said to me, “Andrew, you can do what you love doing, but it doesn’t mean you’ll be happy. Until you do what I want you to do, that’s when you’ll be truly happy.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so, at that point in my young 20s, I had to respond to what God was saying to me, which was, “Do I really want to have peace and happiness in my life? Or do I want to do my own thing?” And at that point I realized that true happiness comes from obeying God. And I had this life changing experience of coming into a relationship with Jesus. And it just changed my life.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, I’m curious. I mean, because you obviously grew up in a Christian home. So hearing from God wouldn’t have been a foreign concept to you, but when you say that, what do you mean? Because different people mean different things when they talk about that.
Major Andrew Murray:
So for me it was a, it was, I’ve had a few times in my life where God has almost spoken out loud. Partially probably because I’m a little slow sometimes and I don’t listen really well. And it’s his version of hitting me with the two by four. My dad used to smack me upside the head say, “Andrew.” God does that to us sometimes too. And in this case, it wasn’t skywriting in the sky. It wasn’t letters in the sky, but it was almost an audible voice.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Major Andrew Murray:
And I’ve only had that happen a very few times in my life. But that was one of them, where God just spoke in such a way that I either had to say, “God, I accept this, or God I reject you.” And I said to God-
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, go ahead.
Major Andrew Murray:
And I said to God, “Okay.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Was that the moment that you would’ve said, “I was called to the Salvation Army.”
Major Andrew Murray:
Yes.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
Because it was clearly, God was not only calling me to him, he was calling me to serve him. And it was this idea of giving of myself, of my desires, of my will and saying to God, “God, I will be your servant, whatever that means. I’ll go wherever you ask me to go.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I do think it’s interesting that you wanted to be in the military and instead you are in the Salvation Army. And I really do think that God is like, “I want you to be in my army. You have a passion for the military, but come be in my army.”
Major Andrew Murray:
And that is very true. And the things that I learned in the military and the training that I received from the military helped me as a Salvation Army officer.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really? How so?
Major Andrew Murray:
Well it taught me leadership. Taught me how to work with people, how to work with teams, how to do things together, how to accomplish being goal driven, and all of that is helpful in the ministry.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Tell me about your career in the army. You’ve served a variety of places, you’re currently in New York, but you’ve been in South Africa and I don’t know where else, so tell me a little bit about your 37 years with the Salvation Army?
Major Andrew Murray:
So the Salvation Army seminary has many regional seminaries. And so depending on where you go to seminary is the geographic area were you will stay.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
So in the United States we have four seminaries. And so in 1983 I went into seminary in New York. One of the people who went to seminary with me had just gotten his M.Div. from Asbury. And even though he already had his Asbury M.Div. he still needed to go through the Salvation Army seminary for two years. And so we went to seminary together. And so that means that for the most part I stay in the geographic northeast.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
So in the U.S. there’s a seminary in Atlanta, in New York, in Chicago and in LA.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
And depending on which seminary you go to, that’s the geographic area that you serve in.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. That makes sense.
Major Andrew Murray:
Now, if the Salvation Army wants you to serve outside of your geographic area, they have to ask you and you have to say, “Yes, I’ll go.” So when we went to Africa, and we’ve been to Africa twice, we’ve served overseas twice. When we went to Africa, the Salvation Army asked if we would be willing to go and we had to say, “Yes, we will go.”
Major Andrew Murray:
And so when we were first commissioned, we went to, when we first ordained, we went to a Salvation Army in Rochester, New York. We were there just for a year just to get our feet wet. And we were the junior pastors there. We had some experienced officers who we were serving with and we had a great opportunity to learn from them how to be a Salvation Army pastor. And then we went from there to a very small, rural New York community in Upstate New York, up on the Canadian border in Northern New York.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And we were there for two years and then our third year of ministry we went to Africa.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
Now that was, for the Salvation Army that’s very unusual. Usually young pastors do not go overseas.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah, I think they want you to have a little more experience before sending you so far away.
Major Andrew Murray:
But, this Southern Africa was in desperate need for young white English speaking pastors. Now this was in the late ’80s. This was still during the apartheid era. And so in 1988 we moved to Africa and it was my wife and myself. We had a two-year-old little girl and the three of us moved to Africa, not at all knowing what was going to happen.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. Wow. So how did you feel going so far away from home, with that young and then having a young family too?
Major Andrew Murray:
Well, also that was before the days of internet.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, right. So you couldn’t connect with people?
Major Andrew Murray:
Couldn’t Zoom. You couldn’t email, you couldn’t. We had it, so international phone calls were very, very expensive. And my parents paid for us to have a 10 minute call once a week to the U.S. But in order to do that, we set an egg timer. And so we would say goodbye when we started the conversation and when the egg timer went off, we had to hang up because you couldn’t afford more minutes.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so we had one 10 minute call a week to the U.S.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. So what was your role while you were serving in Africa?
Major Andrew Murray:
So that time we were pastor of a small to midsize congregation, probably 175 people. We also had an 80 bed emergency shelter. It’s called a goodwill center. And so we had families or, mostly it was families. We also had a children’s Crèche and we had a pension block of pensioners who, so senior citizens who had a very, very small room and that was their home to live in. And so that was kind of our compound and my wife and I ran that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
So the pensioner block had, I believe it was 15 rooms, but they had a very tiny room, just enough space for a single bed, a very small dresser and a chair, like a folding chair. And that was all the space they had. They had no lounge, they had no living room. They had no, nothing like that. And so I was a Rotarian and I talked with our local Rotary Club about building on an addition to the pension block so that we could have a living room. So that the pensioners could have, the seniors could have a living room space. And the Rotary Club thought that was a wonderful idea. And my Rotary Club from the U.S. had decided that they … I wrote to them and asked if they would take this on as a project, and they partnered. So the two Rotary Clubs partnered together and I was so excited because we were able to make this happen.
Major Andrew Murray:
And the day was coming when it was going to happen. And these trucks pulled into our compound and they had all the stuff on it. They had bricks and they had windows, no glass in it. We had cheap glass and we had to glaze them, and they dropped all this stuff off and they drove away.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh. So you all had to build it?
Major Andrew Murray:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Major Andrew Murray:
So I called up the Rotary Club and said, “When are the contractors coming?” And they said, “What do you mean? We got you the stuff.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, build it.
Major Andrew Murray:
So I called the men together from the congregation and I’m in my 20s. I’m a young pastor and I’m an American who’s optimistic. And I was over my head. And I said to them, “What are we going to do?” And they said, “Well, we’ll just build it.” And so I learned all about construction that year.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
How to lay bricks, how to glaze glass, how to put up trusses. And we built a lounge.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
Now I’ve been back since, we were back there just a few years ago, the lounge is still there. It’s still one by, it hasn’t fallen down.
Heidi Wilcox:
Amazing.
Major Andrew Murray:
It’s amazing.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So as you’re talking, I’m thinking about, you’re saying, because you saw your parents giving themselves so much that you never wanted to do that. Obviously you changed your mind, God changed your mind. But that’s what you’ve done for 37 years. You just told me a story about you knew nothing about contracting, you’ve figured it out. I’m guessing you put in more than 40 hours a week. You’re constantly giving and serving. I mean, I’m not sure how exactly to word this, but how do you feel about it now that you’re living the life that you didn’t think you would like?
Major Andrew Murray:
There are days when I don’t enjoy what I have to do, but I’m fairly close to retirement now. We’re looking at retirement now. We’re at the end of our active ministry. And somebody asked me very recently, “If you had to start all over again, would you do it?”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
I’d do it in a second.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really? Why?
Major Andrew Murray:
Because there’s no greater thing than doing what you know God wants you to do. We’re there because God wants us there. We’re doing what God asks us to do.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
If you want real satisfaction, if you want really joy, that comes from listening and obeying to God. From doing what he asks you, because he’s our loving father, right?
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Major Andrew Murray:
I mean, I have three grown-up children. I have grandchildren. I want the very best for my kids.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
I don’t want them to go through hardship. I don’t want them to go through hurt. They do. And when they do we try to help them. But I want the very best for them. Now, if I as a human being can want the very best for my kids, what does God want for us?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So true.
Major Andrew Murray:
And the truth is, God’s a lot smarter than I am.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
I mean, God actually knows what he’s doing. So when he says, “I want you to go here.” To me it might seem like a stretch, but to God he’s saying, “This is what’s best for you.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So why have you stayed the course with the army for 37 years? Because there are a variety of ways to serve the Lord. And not everybody does stays in the same ministry for so long. So why this been the right thing for you and where God has led you?
Major Andrew Murray:
For one thing, in the south, so the longest we were ever in any appointment was 11 years.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh wow, that’s a long time.
Major Andrew Murray:
So we were 11 years at, in inner city, Philadelphia. And it was at urban inner city ministry. It was wonderful. It was amazing. It was one of our most joyful appointments that we’ve ever had. It’s when we look back at and say, “That was one of the highlights of our ministry.” It was very different for us. It was inner city. It was not, yeah, I mean, it was just very different for us. And we were there 11 years. But from there we went to Africa again.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
So that was our second time in Africa. Now we’re experienced officers, we’re older. So while I’ve been in the Salvation Army for 37 years, my wife has been a Salvation Army officer for 38 years. It’s always something new.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right, yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
So the appointment I’m in now, I’m in an administrative appoint at our headquarters and my job, I’m an education officer and my job is to help Salvation Army pastors who are doing their continuing education.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
So, that’s my job.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. So you get to mentor those who are a little younger coming behind you.
Major Andrew Murray:
Exactly. I get to do some-
Heidi Wilcox:
Awesome.
Major Andrew Murray:
I get to do some undergrad teaching and I get to mentor people. And so for me that’s very fulfilling, But this is new. We’ve only been here for a year.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so in this year, so this is all new stuff to me.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
So even though I’ve been a Salvation Army pastor for a long, long time, every time you go to a new appointment it’s something new.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. And that sounds exciting?
Major Andrew Murray:
It is.
Heidi Wilcox:
It sounds challenging, but learning, having new things would be exciting too.
Major Andrew Murray:
Right. And in the Salvation Army every appointment, even every congregational appointment is different. Because the social ministries that we do and everything is geared towards that community. So in our last congregational appointment in the states, in the summertime we fed thousands of children lunch every day as part of a summer feeding program. We had this massive feeding program. But we also had a home, a house or a program for drug addicts who were actively using. And trying to get them to get to the point where they would go into a rehab program. And so it was this transitional thing from an active user to try to help them come somewhere else and change the pattern of life that they’re in so that they can be whole. So that was new to me, it’s something very different. In another appointment we had an Alzheimer’s unit and we had an adult daycare for Alzheimer’s patients. Very different. So every appointment is different.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
Because the need of each community is different.
Heidi Wilcox:
For sure. That is what I love about the Salvation Army is that it seems like you’re very good at showing people the practical faith, like meeting people’s needs, serving them, and showing them Jesus at the same time?
Major Andrew Murray:
Well, we wear the Ss on our uniform and lots of people think that the Ss stand for salvation soldier or something like that. That’s not true.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Major Andrew Murray:
No. The Ss say that I’m saved to serve.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Major Andrew Murray:
Yes. So the whole uniform, the whole concept is that God has saved me. He’s redeemed me. I was a sinner and I couldn’t earn my salvation, but God gave it to me as a gift. And because I’ve been saved now I have to serve. And so I go out to serve others in the name of Jesus.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
William Booth had a saying, he said, “Soups open salvation.”
Heidi Wilcox:
True.
Major Andrew Murray:
So if you have somebody who hasn’t eaten in a day or two days, and you say to them, “I want to talk to you about God.” Chances are they’re not going to listen to you.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, they can’t hear you.
Major Andrew Murray:
Because what they can hear is their stomach rumbling. But if you say, “Let me give you a meal in the name of Jesus, let me take care of this need first. You have this immediate need. Let me help you with this. Now, let me tell you why I helped you with this. I’m not very different. I too was lost, but let me tell you who saved me. His name is Jesus.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Much more to meet the physical needs alongside the spiritual needs and couple those together.
Major Andrew Murray:
So William Booth’s hierarchy was soup, then soap, then salvation. You had to build one on the next.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, and you’re building relationship at the same time.
Major Andrew Murray:
Exactly. So if a person has no self-esteem, if a person has no self-worth, no self-value, how can he accept that there’s a God who loves him?
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Major Andrew Murray:
Because he has no value.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, for sure.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so they each build on each other. And that’s kind the beauty of how the Salvation Army … Not lots of people don’t think of us as a church.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I-
Major Andrew Murray:
Most people don’t think of us as a denomination, which we are. We’re a break off of the Methodist and for 150 plus years the Salvation Army has been there. But most people think of as a social service agency.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
Now, folks who have no relationship up with God, folks who have no desire to have a relationship with God, how likely are they to walk into your local congregation? We want them to. But how likely are they to walk into your local congregation?
Heidi Wilcox:
Not very likely without the relationship being built and need being met.
Major Andrew Murray:
Without something.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Major Andrew Murray:
But people with no understanding of God at all will come into a Salvation Army building and say, “I need help. We know that you are there to help.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure you have lots of stories like this. Because we already established when we were talking before we hit record that you have lots of stories, but can you tell me a story about someone whose life you saw changed because of the work that you or the Salvation Army is doing?
Major Andrew Murray:
Sure. Let me tell you a story about a little girl. Her name is Becky. Now, Becky had a mom and dad. She had two older siblings, but dad was an alcoholic and dad was abusive. And the best thing that ever happened in Becky’s life was when her dad, when she was one, her dad left. Now dad didn’t really leave them. And I found out later really what happened was mom took the kids and left dad, because it was an abusive situation. Now, mom really didn’t have a lot of skills. She was a seamstress. She worked jobs the best she could. They had not a lot of money. They lived in a house where they had no running water. They had a pump, they had an outhouse, they had a metal tub in the kitchen that they filled with water from the pump. And the kids took turns taking a bath once a week.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
Now Becky got to go first because she was the cleanest.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yep.
Major Andrew Murray:
Okay. So, that was her life. I don’t remember how many schools she went to in her elementary and high school thing. I think it was like, it was more than 10. She never stayed in house long.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
They were always moving. The constant for her was the Salvation Army. There were people there who loved her as her. She was Becky. She was important. There was an old couple in that congregation who really loved on her. And she went to a program called Sunbeams, which is like brownies or Girl Scouts. And she started becoming active at the Salvation Army and doing stuff. And she had self-value and she had self-worth. She was loved. When she got through high school, she was encouraged by the person, by the pastor at the Salvation Army, by the officer there that she could be the first person in her family ever to go to college.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And she decided to go. Now, she worked at Salvation Army, she was their bookkeeper, to help pay for, she’s a college student. And it was a small little Salvation Army in a small little town. And she was doing her thing and it was all great. In the end God got hold of her and she’s decided to go to seminary, and we got married.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And my children and my grandchildren are there because somebody loved Becky into the kingdom.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
Statistically, Becky should have been pregnant by the time she was 15. Statistically, Becky should be an alcoholic. Statistically, Becky should have dropped out of school. Statistically Becky had very little hope, but somebody was there for her. Somebody loved her unconditionally.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
Somebody showed her Jesus, and my children are the outcome of that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, that’s a powerful story. That’s a big why for what you do, why you do what you do.
Major Andrew Murray:
Absolutely.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome.
Major Andrew Murray:
And we’ve seen children now who have been kids who have come in while we’ve been pastors and we’re old enough now to have those guys grow up and become Salvation Army pastors.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s really cool.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so it lives on, not through us, we’re getting ready to retire. Our time is almost done. But it lives on generationally through us.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. And how neat to be able to see. Because we don’t all get to see kind of the legacy maybe that we’re leaving or that we hope we’re leaving, but you’re getting to see that.
Major Andrew Murray:
Right.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So, oh, go ahead.
Major Andrew Murray:
And we get to see that all over the world.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
We have kids now who in Africa we, in the ’80s who, when we went back just a few years ago were now the adults of our congregation.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes.
Major Andrew Murray:
And we have kids who now became Salvation Army officers. The children’s home that we had for girls in Africa just recently in January a new past Salvation Army officer has gone in to take over that work. And he was someone who we taught and ordained.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so the next generation is already coming through and it’s happening.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, that’s really cool. So how did you and your wife meet then? Was it at the Salvation Army seminary?
Major Andrew Murray:
No.
Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
So my wife and my sister worked at a Salvation Army camp together. So they were friends. My sister’s older than me. My wife is actually older than me and I was the little brother, so I wasn’t cool. So my sister and my wife were friends. But when I went to seminary my wife was a year ahead of me. And so we were both single in seminary. And at that point we just became really good friends.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so our relationship wasn’t actually a romantic relationship at all. We were just really, really good friends. And all of a sudden we found out that we had fallen in love with each other. And so we got married.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. How many years has it been now?
Major Andrew Murray:
37 years.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, oh yeah. Well that makes sense.
Major Andrew Murray:
So I was ordained on Sunday and we were married the next Saturday.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh my.
Major Andrew Murray:
So we started ministry. All of my ministry has been with my wife as a partner. In the Salvation Army both husbands and wives have to be ordained.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh really?
Major Andrew Murray:
Yeah. So if I was ordained and a single male and married someone else I’d have to give up my ordination.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
Or she would have to go through seminary and be ordained in her own. So both husband and wives in the Salvation Army are both ordained. So the Salvation Army actually has more women pastors than men.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really? That’s cool.
Major Andrew Murray:
And three times now we’ve had our international leader’s been a woman.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
First time in the ’30s.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
So, well, one of William Booth’s very famous lines is, “My best men are women.”
Heidi Wilcox:
He sounds like a good guy.
Major Andrew Murray:
He was interesting. He was a visionary.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
But when my wife and I were having marriage counseling before we got married, my wife in this little Ohio church where she grew up, these missionaries, Salvation Army missionaries, women missionaries who had served in Africa would come back and talk every year about serving in a mission and scared my wife to death. And so when we were going through marriage counseling, she said to me, “Now, Andrew, understand, I love you. I want you to be my husband, but I will never be a missionary. I know that your background and your family background is serving overseas. If you want to do that, we’re not getting married.” And so we talked about it and I made her a promise. I said, “I will never bring this up to you.” And that was my promise. Before, in the ’80s, before we went overseas the first time we had gone to a Salvation Army service in Canada at a Salvation Army camp. And we got to this evening service a little bit, not late, but it was early, but it wasn’t early enough to sit together.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so my wife and I both went in and there were no seats together. So she ended up sitting on one side of the chapel and I sat on the other. And the speaker who was speaking was actually an African officer, Salvation Army officer who was in Canada visiting. And he did this service, evening service. And when it was all over, he’s said, “I want you to know that we are desperately in need of young, white English, speaking core officers, pastors. And I believe that there are people in this congregation right now who God is calling to serve overseas.” And I was sitting in my seat saying, “Hey, God, I’m here.” And then I thought I said, “No, I can’t say that. I promised my wife I would never bring this up.” And God is saying to me, “Andrew, I want you to come.” And this was another one of those few times where God has like, it’s been almost audible.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And God said to me, “Andrew, I want you to go.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And I said, “But God, I can’t, I cannot bring this up.” And God said, “I don’t care. I want you to go.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And I had this internal struggle. I clearly heard what God was saying to me. And I clearly could not do what God was asking me to do.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Major Andrew Murray:
I mean, we only been married a few years. This conversation, it wasn’t that long ago.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Major Andrew Murray:
And then finally I gave into God and I said, “God, okay, listen.” And I went to the altar and I said to God, “God, if you really want to make this happen, you need to work a miracle here because you know what Becky has said.” And this service finished and I’ve made my peace with God saying, “God, it’s up to you now.” And I went to look for Becky and this crowd is huge and it’s this big chapel and huge crowd. And I’m trying to find my wife.
Major Andrew Murray:
And finally I see her and I say, “Becky, I got to talk to you.” And she’s saying, “Andrew I got to talk to you.” I said, “No, Becky, I’ve got to talk to you. It’s really important.” She said, “Andrew, shut up.” And I said, “What?” And she said, during the meeting God spoke to me and God said, “I want you to go to Africa.” You see, what’s really important for us that not that that God called me, but God called her. And that she knew without a shadow of doubt that God had called her too. She wasn’t going because I was going.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right.
Major Andrew Murray:
She was going because God wanted her there. And she had something important to do for God.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, that’s a really beautiful story. So then jumping ahead many years from that, how did you come to Asbury?
Major Andrew Murray:
So a few years ago, well, actually when we came back from Africa this last time, my wife has always had scoliosis. So she had spine problems. It’s just kind of in the background, we’ve always known it. She’s had shots, she’s had therapy, she’s had all the kinds of stuff you do, but she’s always had back problems. And when we came back the back problems started to get really bad. Bad enough that by the end she was in a power wheelchair and we went from doctor to doctor, hospital to hospital, kept on escalating and going up from a small local hospital to a bigger regional hospital, to a really big regional hospital. And finally they said, “She needs major surgery, 20 hours of spine surgery.”
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s a long time.
Major Andrew Murray:
Yes, it is.
Heidi Wilcox:
Very long time.
Major Andrew Murray:
Yes. And they said, “If we don’t do the surgery within five years, she’ll be paralyzed.” Eventually we went to Cleveland Clinic and got his second third, actually, I guess it was a fourth opinion, and Cleveland Clinic’s amazing place. And the head neurosurgeon there said, “Listen, we need to do the surgery. She needs the surgery. If we don’t do the surgery, she’ll be paralyzed. But understand that if three people who have the surgery, one is paralyzed from the surgery.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh wow. Those are kind of terrifying statistics.
Major Andrew Murray:
Yeah, not good stuff to hear.
Heidi Wilcox:
No.
Major Andrew Murray:
And so we prayed about it and we talked about it. We decided to go ahead with the surgery. See, if we didn’t do the surgery, she’s going to be paralyzed anyways. It was just a matter of time, five years and she’d be paralyzed. And so we couldn’t continue to be Salvation Army officers and give her the care that she needed. So I took a year of medical sabbatical. I was still a Salvation Army officer, but for a year we didn’t have an appointment. And my appointment actually was to take care of my wife. Now we already have our retirement home. It’s in Kentucky, it’s not far from Asbury. And so I was kind of wondering what I was going to do with this year with myself as I was trying to help my wife as she went through the healing process after this massive surgery. And so I decided to do a master’s at Asbury.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s how you rest and relax.
Major Andrew Murray:
Well, I needed something to occupy my mind.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes.
Major Andrew Murray:
See, I knew that with my personality, if I just sat there, I would obsess about the situation we were in. I needed something to occupy my mind. And so I got a half of a master’s and pastor counseling done in that year.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
I did 10 classes that year.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Major Andrew Murray:
And it was amazing.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. How so?
Major Andrew Murray:
So I’ve been a Salvation Army officer for a long time and I have this built-in family in the Salvation Army. And that’s very important to me and they love on me and they pray for me and they support me and they help me. But during that time I needed more. And the truth was, so now most of the classes I’ve taken, I’m older than any of the other students. Most of the time I’m older than the professors. There’s only been a few professors who have been my age or older. Most of my classes I’m the oldest in the class. And it’s been beautiful. It’s been wonderful. But what I found is, especially in the really dark times after the surgery, when things were really not well, it was the Asbury professors who are my friends. Who were praying me through the moment. Who were calling up on me to check to see how my wife was.
Heidi Wilcox:
Hmm, okay.
Major Andrew Murray:
Who were talking with me to say, “How are you doing spiritually? How are you doing physically? How are you mentally right now?” They were much more than professors, they were friends.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And they loved on me in that moment when I really needed that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And it was different. I mean, myself, Salvation Army friends and comrades were absolutely doing that as well.
Heidi Wilcox:
Of course. Yes.
Major Andrew Murray:
But it was different.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Now your family expanded.
Major Andrew Murray:
My family expanded at the time when I needed a bigger family. And it wasn’t that God wasn’t sufficient. It was that God brought in the people that I needed for that moment.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, for sure.
Major Andrew Murray:
Because he knew what I was going through. And he knew what help I needed at that moment. See, God’s a lot smarter than me. Actually, when God does his miracles, we said, “Wow, I can’t believe that God just did that.” Have you ever done that?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And then we said, well, I am saying, “Wow, I can’t believe God did that.” That’s what he does.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s true. That’s true.
Major Andrew Murray:
This is who he is. This is his nature.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s true.
Major Andrew Murray:
And we’re surprised when God works miracles.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s true. So, you might still be in that season a little bit of healing and recovery from it, but what have you learned about God during this time, or are you currently learning?
Major Andrew Murray:
So well, that’s a big question.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
So what I’ve learned in these last two years is that God doesn’t want us to hold on to him. Now, when I say that people often get this shocked look on their face like, “What do you mean?” But God doesn’t want us to hold onto him. When we hold onto God, we’re using our strength. We’re using our power and that’s finite. It finishes, it ends. And there comes a point where we can’t hold on anymore, because we have nothing left. We have no way to hold onto him anymore. And I found myself in that position where I could not hold onto God anymore. And when I finally, my grasp just let go out of exhaustion. My strength was gone. I dropped about two inches and found the God’s hand was under me. And he said, “I’ve been here all along. I want to hold onto you. But if you want to do that yourself, if you want to hold onto me, that’s fine. I’ll let you, that’s your will. You can do it, go for it. But understand that my hand was here all the time.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, “I’m right here the whole time.”
Major Andrew Murray:
See, God holds onto us. We don’t need to hold onto him, because he’s already holding onto us. I have a granddaughter and she likes to climb into my lap. Now she plays, she’s active. She’s a toddler and all of that stuff. And quite honestly, right now she’s at the point where she won’t let me give her a kiss. Because I’m a guy and it’s, right? And that’s fine, but she’ll climb up into my lap. And when she does, she just sits there and looks at me. She doesn’t say anything. She doesn’t do anything. She just sits there and looks at me. Well, I discovered that what it is she wants to be in my presence. She wants to be with granddad. And in the same way we come to the father and we climb into his lap, not to ask anything, not to say anything, not to be anything, just to be in his presence.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.
Major Andrew Murray:
And God holds onto us like that. Says, “If you want to do it on your own, go for it. I’ve given you free will. You can do your thing. But when you run out, when you’re exhausted, understand that I’m still here.”
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure.
Major Andrew Murray:
See, it’s not my strength that makes things happen. In my brokenness God works miracles. My ministry is really not about what I can do for the kingdom. It truly is what God can do through me. I have to be willing to be God’s tool, and then God works miracles. God is in the miracle business. That’s who he is. That’s what he does.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, totally.
Major Andrew Murray:
And we’re the ones who usually stop the miracles from happening.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes, unfortunately, that is also true.
Major Andrew Murray:
So, you ask a really deep question there. What have I learned? That’s what I’ve learned this last couple weeks.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. What a profound thing to learn. What a hard thing I think to have learned, because letting go doesn’t come easy.
Major Andrew Murray:
No. And getting to the point where you can’t hold on anymore doesn’t come easy either.
Heidi Wilcox:
No.
Major Andrew Murray:
The time after the surgery was horrible times. Traumatic times. And there were times when I just wanted God to take us to heaven. And yet God in his faithfulness held onto us through that time. And when we came to the point where we are now, Becky hung her walker on the wall and said, “I’m not using this Walker anymore.” And she walked into our office without the walker, it was a miracle.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Major Andrew Murray:
Worked through people. Yes. Worked through surgents, yes. But it was God, faithful God working a miracle, and it changed our lives.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I want to be mindful of our time. So we’ve talked about a great many things, but is there anything else you want to say that I didn’t know to ask?
Major Andrew Murray:
No, we’ve had a good conversation. It’s been fun.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I’ve loved it. I’ve loved it. So we have one question that we ask everyone who comes on the show. So, because the show is called the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. What is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life right now?
Major Andrew Murray:
The contemplation with God. Quiet time with God. Not where I ask him anything. Not where I petition for anything. Not where I tell him a single word, but like with my granddaughter, I just climb into his lap and come into his presence.
Heidi Wilcox:
Hmm, that’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Well, Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time to share just a little bit of your story today. I really enjoyed it and I know our listeners will as well. So thank you so much.
Major Andrew Murray:
You’re welcome, blessings.
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Major Andrew Murray. Isn’t his story such a gift to us you guys? I really appreciate the opportunity to have heard just a small portion of it, but to hear him share about God’s faithfulness throughout his life, and even now in this season. If you enjoyed what you heard, which I hope you did, and if you know him, be sure to tell him, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. As always, you can follow Asbury Seminary in all the places, on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at @Asburyseminary. Until next time, I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.
