Dr. Michael Matlock joined the podcast today. The Rev’d Prof. Michael Matlock is Professor of Inductive Biblical Studies, Old Testament, & Early Judaism & Co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation at Asbury Seminary.
Prof. Matlock has served in the School of Biblical Interpretation since 1998, as the department chair of Inductive Biblical Studies since 2013, and as co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation since 2019. He understands his calling to be a beloved son and servant of Jesus, unconditional lover of Robin, loving encourager of his children, and to teach Scripture for the sake of God’s church and world. Outside of teaching biblical studies, he teaches the Anglican history and polity course. His books include “Discovering the Traditions of Prose Prayers in Early Jewish Literature” (T&T Clark) and a devotional commentary on Daniel 1-6 (Seedbed). He is currently writing a two-volume commentary on the Greek text of 1 and 2 Chronicles and the Prayer of Manasseh for the Septuagint Commentary Series (Brill Publishers).
He and his wife Robin have been married for more than 30 years and have three insightful, resourceful children.
In today’s conversation, we talk about Dr. Matlock’s calling to ministry and how that unfolded, what he knows about calling now that he didn’t then, marriage and a little bit about his work here at Asbury Seminary. You won’t want to miss this delightful conversation.
Let’s listen!
*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.
Rev'd Dr. Michael Matlock, Professor of Inductive Biblical Studies, Old Testament & Early Judaism Co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation.
Michael is married to Robin (née Orander), his beautiful darling companion. They fell in love in college in 1990 and have stayed in love for more than thirty years. Their three insightful, resourceful children are Madeline (WKU alum 2019), Raleigh (EKU alum 2022), and Isaac (HS junior at Summit Christian Academy). The Matlocks love having a good time with each other and enjoy their hobbies of bicycle riding, bird gazing, watching comedy-drama, and taking pleasure in God’s beautiful creation.
At Asbury Seminary, Prof. Matlock has served in the School of Biblical Interpretation since 1998, as the department chair of Inductive Biblical Studies since 2013, and as co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation since 2019. He understands his calling to be a beloved son and servant of Jesus, unconditional lover of Robin, loving encourager of his children, and to teach Scripture for the sake of God’s church and world. Outside of teaching biblical studies, he teaches the Anglican history and polity course. His books include Discovering the Traditions of Prose Prayers in Early Jewish Literature (T&T Clark) and a devotional commentary on Daniel 1-6 (Seedbed). He is currently writing a two-volume commentary on the Greek text of 1 and 2 Chronicles and the Prayer of Manasseh for the Septuagint Commentary Series (Brill Publishers).
Heidi Wilcox, host of the Thrive Podcast
Writer, podcaster, and social media manager, Heidi Wilcox shares stories of truth, justice, healing and hope. She is best known as the host of Spotlight, (especially her blooper reel) highlighting news, events, culturally relevant topics and stories of the ways alumni, current students and faculty are attempting something big for God. If you can’t find her, she’s probably cheering on her Kentucky Wildcats, enjoying a cup of coffee, reading or spending time with her husband, Wes.
Show Notes
Guest Links
- Connect with Dr. Michael Matlock
Transcript
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. I’m your host, Heidi E. Wilcox, bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders and people just like you who are looking to connect where your passion meets the world’s deep needs. Today on the podcast, Dr. Michael Matlock joins us. He is Professor of Inductive Bible Studies, Old Testament and Early Judaism, and co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation at Asbury Seminary. Professor Matlock has served in the School of Biblical Interpretation since 1998, and as the department chair of Inductive Bible Studies since 2013. He’s served as co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation since 2019. He understands his calling to be a beloved son and servant of Jesus, unconditional lover of Robin, his wife, loving encourager of his children, and to teach scripture for the sake of God’s church and the world. Outside of teaching biblical studies, he teaches the Anglican History and Polity course. His books include Discovering the Traditions of Prose Prayers in Early Jewish Literature and a devotional commentary on Daniel 1-6.
Heidi Wilcox:
He is currently writing a two-volume commentary on the Greek text of First and Second Chronicles and the Prayer of Manasseh for the Septuagint Commentary series with Brill Publishers. He and his wife, Robin, have been married for more than 30 years, and have three insightful and resourceful children. In today’s conversation, we talk about Dr. Matlock’s calling to ministry and how that unfolded, what he knows about calling now that he didn’t then, marriage, and a little bit about his work here at the seminary. You won’t want to miss this delightful conversation, so let’s listen. Michael, it is great to get to talk to you today. I have been looking forward to our conversation. It’s been so great to get to know you, because we’ve talked off podcast more too. I’ve seen you around campus, but it’s great to actually get to sit down and have a conversation now.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I feel the same way, Heidi. I really do. First of all, I’m appreciative that you invited me.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, of course.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That’s always a special privilege to be invited to speak about oneself, you know what I mean? I was like, why does anybody want to hear my story, but thank you. I love the name Thrive that you’ve given the podcast. I don’t know if you came up with it or not.
Heidi Wilcox:
It was a group effort.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It’s really a great, great name. Really, it captures what I’m trying to doing my life, flourish and live a healthy life. I love the name. I think it’s helping people, so kudos to you guys.
Heidi Wilcox:
Well, that’s what we want to do. We want to help people thrive, so I’m glad it’s working. We’ve talked a lot off podcast now at this point, or a couple hours at any rate. You grew up in North Carolina. How did you get from North Carolina to Wilmore, Kentucky?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That’s a great question. I would say that it was a long, circuitous path.
Heidi Wilcox:
Aren’t they all, right?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Aren’t they all? Right. They are, they are. In my home of origin, which was in a little small town of the foothills of Appalachia, and of course the Appalachian mountains run from Georgia way up into the Northeast-
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That whole mountain range is pretty long. Well, I grew up on one side of the Appalachian mountains in North Carolina, a little small town called Stony Point, in a Christian home. Mother and father were Presbyterians. My mother came from a long family of Presbyterians. It was a good childhood. I had a big family. My mother, nine children in her family. My father, five boys. There was a lot of family gatherings that happened as I was growing up. Pretty large Appalachian family, you might say. In any case, to move us, that was my younger years. I went to school in North Carolina. My parents were married 53 years.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Lived in the same house for 52 of those years. My mother passed away about four years ago, five years ago now. Anyway, it was a very typical Appalachian family life. People stayed in the same place, a lot of those values of Appalachia. In any case, we left the Presbyterian church in my teenage years. There was a theological drift in that particular church. My mother and father decided to go to a little Methodist church, it was just three miles the other way. That was really where my formative teenage years were, in a little Methodist church. That was where I received a call to full-time Christian ministry. I was 13 years of age. I should back up and say I became a Christian really at a very early age, had a salvation experience when I was probably six years old.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, I did when I was five. Right?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah, yeah. We felt the tug of Jesus at these early ages. Living in Christian homes can certainly, and should, aid in that. That’s what Christian families are for, to help their children learn who Jesus is. Anyway, at around 13 I was at a youth conference in Urbana, Illinois. It was our denominational gathering. I felt just a sense of the spirit saying, “Michael, you know what? I really would like you to think about working in Christian service full-time.” That was a daunting … I mean, oh, my goodness. I didn’t know what to make of that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. How did you feel about that? Because I know sometimes kids who grow up in Christian homes sometimes don’t want anything to do with the Christian faith, but then if they do then don’t want as much to do with full-time ministry. Did you have those feelings? How did you feel about that?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I did. I did. I mean, the examples that were in front of me were both positive and negative.
Heidi Wilcox:
Well, that’s life.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That’s life, that’s life. For me, what that looked like was you need to be a pastor. I didn’t feel called into pastoral ministry. I was always trying to figure out what does this mean to be someone who lives for Christ full-time and doesn’t feel like they need to be a pastor, but people are telling him he needs to be a pastor?
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. What do you do with that?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I felt shoehorned, if you know what I mean.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Like, wrong fit here. As I journeyed in my teenage years, I just explored what all that might mean and still didn’t know through high school. Of course, in high school I was just trying to figure out going through puberty, trying to understand life and trying to fit in. I went through a time, probably from 16 to 21, where I was really questioning my faith. I went through a rebellious period. I just really didn’t want the traditional Christianity that I was accustomed to. It just felt suffocating, to be honest with you. Again, I think part of that was I was trying to figure out who I was in Christ. Then I was also not seeing some of the examples that perhaps I really thought couldn’t be as helpful to me at the time. In any case, being from an Appalachian family, and this is typical I’ve found in many Appalachian regions, education was not really stressed in my life. Go out, go work hard, go find a good job, build a family right here. Don’t go far.
Heidi Wilcox:
Leave home, but not too far.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Not too far, because you got a big family here and we always want you there. For me, what I wanted to do was become a pilot.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s exciting.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
My father went to high school with someone who worked for what was called Piedmont Airlines in the 1980s. He was what was called the station manager in New Orleans for Piedmont. It just so happened that he did the hiring for New Orleans and Charlotte, North Carolina, which was the largest town where I grew up. I got an interview with Piedmont Airlines at 18 years of age.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, my goodness.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I was the youngest person in the room and I felt so intimidated.
Heidi Wilcox:
I bet.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
There’s probably a hundred people in the room, all of us trying to get a job at the airlines. This was back in the day when working for the airlines was a glamorous job, you know?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Today, I’m not so sure that it is, because there’s been so many changes in the airline industry. Anyway, I got the job with God’s help. I worked there for about two and a half years. Piedmont merged with US Air, which today we know is merged with American Airlines, but I was part of the early start of those mergers. In God’s providence, US Air, when it bought Piedmont, had to downsize because they did one of these huge merger and they had too many employees. Me, being one of the last persons hired, I was what’s called furloughed.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It was so devastating to me. I was like, oh, Lord. I wanted to be a pilot. I was working just on the ground crew, getting ready to become a flight attendant and taking private pilots lessons. I’ve got this great life lined up and Lord, what are you doing derailing my life like this? I lost my job. It was during that time, really before that, that God would say, “Michael, this is not perhaps what I had in store for you.” I started doing a lot of self reflection, a lot of thinking about how is my faith actually being lived out? The Lord just … I had a time of rededication in my life in my early twenties. I entered college at 21 years of age, so I didn’t go straight into college.
Heidi Wilcox:
Sometimes I think that’s good. Reflecting on my life, I wish there’d been a little break in between to know more what I really wanted.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
You are so right. Heidi, when I entered college, I was so ready to go to school.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
If I would’ve went at 18, I would not have probably done very well because, to be quite honest with you, I had blown off my junior and senior year. I mean, I played high school football. I really was into sports. I didn’t really have to work hard for the grades that I got. I wasn’t really trying, applying myself well. I would not have probably done great. I would’ve probably struggled, but when I went to college at 21, I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to go just get a degree in Christian ministry and philosophy or something, religion, something like that. I was ready. Although I had to do some catch-up work in my English skills and other areas, I was so in. I was so ready to learn. At that time, my freshman year I met Robin.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, really?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah. I met Robin in college our freshman year. First class I had was a biology class with Dr. Harvey [Ponds 00:12:07]. It was a little … We started at a community college in North Carolina, Statesville, North Carolina. We’re sitting in biology class, about 50 people. It was a lecture. Robin is sitting just a couple rows over beside me. The professor, we would take tests and he would pass back the test. I get my test and it was a 77 or 80, because I’m still struggling learning how to study. Robin’s over there, 100, 99, 100. I’m seeing her grades. I’m like, oh, she’s got it together and knows what she’s doing in this class, and she’s a very attractive young lady. I just decided I’m going to ask if she will allow me to study with her, to be my study partner. I asked her, I think, after class one day. I said, “Wow, you’re really doing well in this class. Can I see how you do what you do, because I really need help?” We met in the library and we started studying together. It was love at first sight. We …
Heidi Wilcox:
On both sides, or just yours?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I think both sides. No, I know both sides. We were both instantly attracted to each other. I, being in my early twenties, Robin being a 19 year old, we … I can’t get into all of it. At the points we were at in our life, we were both very attracted to each other, both physically, but also spiritually attracted each other, emotionally attracted to each other. She told me, she’s like, “I have felt a call to missionary service since I was just a little gal. I don’t know what that means. I came from a tradition where women can’t really serve fully in the church. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with my life, but I know the Lord has called me to do something.” I said, “Oh, that’s funny, because I feel called to something that I don’t know what it is in Christian ministry, but I know the Lord’s called.”
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That was attractive to us, and so we started dating. We love to ride bikes. We rode bikes and we still do today. We went through an interlude where we didn’t, but that’s always been a passion of ours and a joint thing. We both love physical activity. We both love being outside, and so we did that. We got married pretty quickly. We got married our sophomore year, the next year, and went through college together in South Carolina. We transferred to a little Christian college, a little Wesleyan school in South Carolina, and both graduated. Then you asked how we got to Kentucky, here’s the answer.
Heidi Wilcox:
Well, because you had said that you were, I think, the first person in your family to graduate from college, which is amazing, and a little bit similar to my own story in a way, so I can identify somewhat. Why did you decide to pursue a career as a professor then, because I think that may be what led you to Kentucky?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes, you’re exactly right. When we finished college, I still didn’t know what the Lord was calling me to be. The logical step was graduate school. Three of my professors were Asbury graduates out of … There was a small religion department of five, couple part-time, but five full-time, three of them were Asbury graduates. They took us to visit Asbury our junior year. We were looking at other seminaries, some of them across the country. We looked at about five different seminaries, and probably just the personal touch of coming and seeing people here, liking Kentucky.
Heidi Wilcox:
It is very similar to North Carolina.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It is very, these two states are probably some of the most similar states in the whole 50 states. We’re like the flip side of each other. You cross the Appalachian mountains and you’re back in the same territory.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
The only thing that North Carolina has that Kentucky doesn’t is a beach, a big beach, the ocean. That’s the only thing.
Heidi Wilcox:
What I do love about North Carolina is I feel like no matter where you are in the state, you’re only a two hour drive from the beach, which is pretty awesome.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That’s true. That’s true. That’s true, but living, I will say, on central Kentucky, there’s nothing quite like central Kentucky. It’s beautiful. Horse country. It’s gorgeous, but we don’t have that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Especially, in the spring.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
North Carolina doesn’t have that. It’s a trade off, but you’re right. They’re very similar. We came up here and started seminary. It was really while we were here in seminary and doing an MDiv that the Lord started to clarify, “Well, what are you going to do, Michael?” I just was attracted to biblical studies. I was doing well in biblical studies. I really loved studying the scriptures.
Heidi Wilcox:
You obviously learned how to study by then.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes. College prepared me well for seminary. I’m always empathetic to people who come to seminary and don’t have those study skills, because I was fortunate enough, when I came here I was ready. I was ready to go for all my classes. I was ready to learn. I had the right foundation to learn. Yeah, I was.
Heidi Wilcox:
You were attracted to biblical studies. Then after you graduated, did you stay here?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
Or, did you go somewhere else and come back? What was that journey like?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah, that’s right. Good question, because what happened was my final year of my MDiv, Robin and I applied to what was called the teaching fellowship here at the seminary. We did not have a PhD program at the time. Upper level masters students were invited to apply to teach Hebrew and Greek full-time as an instructional faculty. They hired one person each year, one usually for Greek one year and one for Hebrew. They alternated. The year I was up, Hebrew was the language of choice for the person they were hiring, and so they hired me to teach Hebrew full-time. That’s why we stayed here. We stayed here after the MDiv for three years. I was teaching Hebrew full-time and some Greek, it was a couple times for Greek. That’s why we stayed for three more years.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. You stayed for three years. Was there a break? Because I know you and your wife are still, to me, because I feel like you’ve always been here as long as I’ve been here, but I didn’t know your wife also works here. Have you always been part of the Asbury community since being a student here?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes. Yes, we have. It’s funny, because since … We came in 1994 as students. We did the MDiv in four years. Robin put me through seminary. She worked in legal jobs, primarily paralegal, legal assistance, and then three years as a teaching fellow from 1998 to 2001. At that point I had to figure out, because the job was up, three years is usually the max for the teaching fellowship. We applied for further graduate school for doctoral programs. The program that I was accepted at and gave me the most funding, to be quite frank, was Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in Cincinnati. That was a gift to us because it allowed us really just to move to Northern Kentucky. We lived Northern Kentucky. Cincinnati, as most people are aware, especially those from this part of the country, know it’s just across the river in Kentucky. We were still Kentuckians. We lived still in Kentucky.
Heidi Wilcox:
You just crossed the river?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes, just across the river. We physically moved up there for seven years to do the program, but I was still adjunct-ing for the seminary. I was still teaching primarily online. I would do a hybrid summer intensive, so still connected to the community, but in a more of a distant way.
Heidi Wilcox:
No, that makes sense. As you pursued the education, you talked about being called to ministry around the age of 13, can you talk a little bit about how you understood calling then? I’m guessing it may have changed over the … I know how I understand it has changed, so I’m guessing I’m not alone.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I would love to. You and I have talked about this before, and I just want to put a proviso. It’s one of those terms that it’s been problematic for a lot of people, the word calling. We use it a lot at our seminary here at Asbury, and I think other seminaries may, especially evangelical seminaries love to use this term. I do like the term, but I do also want to just say to our listeners that it can’t have a very detrimental focus for some people, especially as we look at people who are a professor or people who are a pastor, and we say, “Well, that’s not me.” Let’s say you are working as a lawyer, or you’re working as someone who’s a dietician, or you’re working as someone who’s whatever, the marketplace is huge. It’s full of Christians, thank God. Those people often look at that and say, “Well, I’m not called to be a pastor. I’m not called to be a professor.” I just want to say that term can be very problematic for people. The way I want to define it I hope will give you some understanding in the way I think about calling.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, please.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
For me, we’re called to be loved by Jesus and to love Jesus back. That’s our primary calling.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
We do that through the relationship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This community that we’re called into, this trying God, is a perfect, loving, holy community. There’s no imperfection in their love. It’s amazing to me that God created a world that he really didn’t need. He didn’t need a creation, but he wanted a creation. God wanted to share God’s love with us. That’s our primary calling. Of course, the biblical story, in short, is simply God created a good and beautiful world. Creation rebelled against God. God has been spending the rest of his time redeeming this good world that he made, and he’s going to make it even better. That’s my primary calling, is to be loved by this wonderful God, this beautiful, redemptive, amazing God who provides unconditional love. That’s really important. I think that’s one of the most foundational concepts of being a Christian, is that we are loved unconditionally. There’s nothing we can do to earn God’s love, so that’s my calling. I love that. That, to me, I can get behind that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. It’s freeing, right?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Everybody in this world can have that calling. Some of us already have it. We know it. Some of us don’t, that’s the world.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. I think I’ve gotten tripped up with calling sometimes, thinking it was a particular job. I think sometimes it may be, but in my head I twisted it and thought it always was. I really, really struggled. Like, I don’t feel like there’s one job I’m supposed to do. Right?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I think, oh, you’re hitting on such an important thing, Heidi. That is, it becomes … I’m going to make a bit of an overstatement here, but anything that becomes our calling before that is idolatrous. It becomes a hindrance in our life. I see this with so many Christians. I want to talk a little bit about this with marriage. I want to talk a little bit about this about jobs. Every time we see our calling not as primarily to be loved by God and to love him back and love our neighbors, ourself, we’ll always have a miserable life. We’ll always create misery for other people. You ask me how my calling has changed since I was 13, so that, I’ve gotten a better grasp of that. Because you’re right, the world and our culture, and even our Christian culture, really puts a high focus, there you go, on jobs. The second calling that I had, and this came when I was 22 years of age, my second calling is to love my wife, Robin, unconditionally, and to create a loving marriage with her.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Because marriage is a lifetime commitment between a husband and a wife, a man and a woman, a woman and a man, who are given to each other by God to share that love. By sharing that love, they receive the sanctifying power of God. Sanctifying is such a holy word. It can be such an off-putting word because we religious types, we use it all the time, but sanctification, at its essence it’s nothing more than becoming like Jesus Christ. That’s what sanctification is. It’s becoming who God made us to be. Again, I can get behind that. That’s the beauty of the Christian life, because we are called to be like Jesus. Jesus is compelling. He’s compelling in everything. Everything, and especially in our marriage. That’s my second calling, my marriage. Well, we had three children. Anytime you have a child, guess what? You’re calling just increased.
Heidi Wilcox:
Expanded, yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Expanded, exactly. I have three amazing, insightful children. Each one of them are very, very different. Madeline is my oldest daughter. Then I have two sons, Raleigh and Isaac. Each one of them has helped me in so many ways to learn what sacrificial love is. Parenting at its core is God given to help us to understand what true sacrificial love is about. Because, you know what? There are times I don’t feel like loving my kids. I was ornery. I was ornery as a … I have a look at my childhood and I was a difficult son in many ways. Children, that’s just part of their life, it’s part of learning who they are. My calling is to be a loving encourager to my kids. I may not like everything they do. That’s not ultimately on me to try to live my expectations for their lives.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, that’s huge.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah, you’re right. That word expectation.
Heidi Wilcox:
And for other people.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
And for other people. The only person that I can have expectations for is myself. I can’t have expectations for my wife, can’t have expectations for my kids. Every time I do, someone says it’s a resentment waiting to happen.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s true.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I don’t want to live a resentful life. I don’t think God wants us to be resentful. I’ve had this problem, I’ve seen so many Christians living resentful lives because they want their lives to be somebody else’s lives.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right, right. I want to go a couple directions now, but the calling piece. I think we understand calling now in a similar way, because how I see it is I’m a child of the most high God. My calling is to love other people as Jesus loved me, and to use my gifts and talents to do that. To me, I found that so freeing, because there might be a point in my life where it’s like, “Heidi, I really want you to do this work. This is it for you right now,” but I don’t feel that right now, so it’s so freeing to be like … And not easy to always love other people, like you were talking about, but it’s simple. I’m like, oh, I know what I’m supposed to do in life now. Right?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes.
Heidi Wilcox:
It was freeing to me in that way.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Well, having a singular focus, the shakers have tis the gift to be simple, tis the gift to be free. See, simplicity creates freedom for our lives. We live in a very complex world.
Heidi Wilcox:
Totally.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It always has been, the world has always been complex.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. I think we think it’s more complex now. Maybe it is, but it always … Whatever time you were in, it was complex.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It’s always been complex. We have the added challenge of our own technological advances, but you know what? When the printing press came along in the 1400s, 1500s, it was just as much a challenge to them as the internet is for us.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. We were watching The Gilded Age last night and they were doing a magic lantern show. They were all excited. It was the pre-movie thing. They were all excited about that. I was like, wow, that was new for them. That was their technological advancement.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Our challenge as people, as humanity, one of our greatest challenges, and this is true throughout history, is not a technological problem. It’s a relational problem. We’re always going to have new technologies, always, because human beings, we create because God made us creative. That’s what we do. The problem is that when anytime something creative is made, a laptop, or a microphone, whatever, it doesn’t matter, these are all things that we create. We create because God allowed us to be creative. The thing of it is, is that all these things can, again, I used this word before, can become idolatrous to us because at core we’re relational beings. We’re meant to relate and love, that’s it. If technology is creating a barrier for us to love ourselves, or the people that are close to us and people outside of our circles, then technology has become a barrier to what God has for us.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
No, you’re right. We have to keep it simple. When I was a kid, we had this phrase called KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. I don’t like that phrase because nobody’s stupid, but I do like it. Keep it simple. Keep it simple and be smart. I like to turn it into a more positive phrase. There is power in simplicity. Anything we understand complex has to be understood simply before it can be understood complex. Think about mathematics. Think about trigonometry. Nobody understands trigonometry until they put all these little simple pieces into place to create the complexity. We want to understand complexity without simplicity, and it destroys our relationships. It destroys our marriages. It destroys our parenting. It destroys our friendships. It destroys the church. God is calling us back to live a simple, Christ-filled life that is built upon love always. I see this in institutions too, where the institution can’t get around loving people over their desires, or their mission, or whatever it is.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Love is at the core of every Christian mission. When it’s not at the core, it will destroy that institution. It will destroy that family. It will destroy whatever it is we think is so important because without love … Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, “You can have the greatest of anything you want to have. If you don’t have love, you have nothing. Nothing.” Paul says it so well. I just see that from top to bottom in our culture, both in the church and outside the church, people are not keeping it simple with love, God given, Christ-filled redemptive love, unconditional love. That’s hard, like you said. It’s not easy, but we got to love ourselves through Jesus. We got to become healthy. We got to learn to have sustainable rhythmic patterns in our life that help us to build love. Love is not something you learn overnight. Love is something we do every day. We learn something about ourselves every day.
Heidi Wilcox:
Don’t we, though? Don’t we, though?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah.
Heidi Wilcox:
You talked about expectations a minute ago. You and your wife, Robin, have been married 30 …
Dr. Michael Matlock:
30 plus years-
Heidi Wilcox:
30 plus years.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
… in December.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. Congratulations.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Thank you. Thank you. I feel very blessed.
Heidi Wilcox:
We’ve only been married five years this May, so I know even in that short amount of time there’s a lot of fun. There’s a lot of work. There’s a lot of sacrifice. There’s a lot of expectations that have to be adjusted. Could you talk a little bit about the expectation piece in marriage and a little bit about y’all’s journey?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I’d love to, thank you. I’m very passionate about this, Heidi, having been married 30 plus years now and, again, just to be quite frank, seen so many marriages dissolve, marriages you wouldn’t have thought would’ve dissolved.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right? It … Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Go ahead.
Heidi Wilcox:
No, because prior to getting married, that was one of my biggest hangups to getting married. Because I was like, I feel like these people that, I don’t have a particular one in mind, but these people that I’ve looked up to, couples, I’m like, they are married 20 years and it looks like everything’s fine. Then I’m like, I feel like one side wakes up one morning, is like, “I don’t want to do this anymore.” I was like, what if that happens to me? Because it felt like something you can’t plan, you know?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah, that’s right.
Heidi Wilcox:
I was like, what if he wakes up one morning and is like, “I’m out,” and we’ve been doing this for 20 years? Because, that’s what it seems like on the outside.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I totally, totally agree.
Heidi Wilcox:
I know there’s more things that go on. It’s not necessarily that simple, but I was like, oh, my goodness.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
No, I agree with you. I think that’s the surprising thing about marriage, is that we start seeing marriages when they dissolve and fail. It’s just very surprising. It’s very shocking, especially marriages that we didn’t see had any issues in it. Again, you and I have talked a little bit about our, I won’t call them facades, but our selves that we show people in public and the self we show in private. Right?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
They can be very different selves. I think that’s why it’s shocking to us, because we only see … In marriage, especially if we don’t know people very well, we only see the public side of them. Again, here’s what happens. I think so often, and Christians really fall in this trap, they see the outside. Oh, they have a great job, whatever great means to us.
Heidi Wilcox:
Exactly.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That a problem in itself, but anyway. Whatever we’ve idealized is great. Their children look wonderful, whatever. They dress well, all these physical signs that we see on the outside. We measure their marriage by that, or we measure whatever by that.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, and the house and the car.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
If you go back to the Old Testament, Heidi, that famous story of David’s calling, you remember David the way he was called by God? The prophet showed up at Jesse’s house. He looked at all these sons that Jesse had: tall, handsome, robust sons. The prophet was like, “I haven’t found him yet.” “Well, I got one more son, but he’s the youngest. He’s the little guy.” “That’s the one.” The famous line from the Bible, Heidi, we know this well, is that humans look on the outside, but God looks at the heart. That’s a cardinal virtue of Christianity, a cardinal tenant of Christianity. Why is that? Because out of our inward self, comes our outward self.
Heidi Wilcox:
For real.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
For real, for real. As we think about marriages, and I think about my own marriage … I’ll just tell you some of the things that I have processed in our marriage that have helped us to stay married and to have a thriving marriage, because I believe that God wants every Christian marriage to be thriving.
Heidi Wilcox:
Of course.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I really believe that. Some of us may maybe listen to that like, well, he’s crazy. What is he thinking about? Well, we all have to start where we’re at. Now, there’s all kinds of marriages in Christian marriages. There may be a marriage where one partner is giving up on the other partner. This is the stark example. I have somebody in mind I’ve talked to recently, where one partner has done something to the other partner that’s a betrayal of trust. What do you do? Well, what I say to them and what I say to myself is you can do some things by yourself to save your marriage. They’re hard. They start with what’s called unconditional love, back to that unconditional love. If you want your marriage to have a chance, whether you’re in the best marriage or one of the most struggling marriages, the key is unconditional love. That’s hard. I’ve got some resources I could give to listeners on how do you save your marriage alone? It’s hard and it takes time.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It’s not a quick thing. It’s not a quick fix. You’ve got those marriages. Then you’ve got marriages that, they’re doing pretty well. They don’t really feel like they got any problems, but they know they could be better. There’s those that may be good or some somewhat good. By the way, there’s all kinds of resources out there where people have measured marriages. There’s all these ratings. Anyway, so I’m going through some of those ratings, and then you keep moving up. Then you’ve got what’s called a thriving marriage. I think, no, I know, that’s what God wants for each marriage, but it doesn’t happen overnight. You may have a thriving marriage. Like I say, I’ve only been married 30 years, because again, marriage is a lifetime commitment for-
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s a short amount of time compared to your parents, like 50 years?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah, 53 for my parents. It’s a short amount of time considering our eternal existence. Again, so it’s just a blip. If marriage is designed so that we can become more Christlike, and I believe Paul says so much in Ephesians Chapter 5, one of the primary purposes of marriage is to become more like Jesus through each other, to help each other become like that. Well, if you want a thriving marriage, first of all, you got to have self-awareness. Now, didn’t see that one coming because, quite frankly, again, I’ve said that word quite frankly a lot, I guess I thought a lot about this, I think there are too many of us Christians who are not self aware of who we are.
Heidi Wilcox:
Really?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
If we don’t know who we are, then we’re living our lives stumbling around. Other people see who we are. They may come to us and say, “You’re like this.” I’m like, “Oh, no I’m not.” I’ll give you an example. For me, my father was a workaholic. I love my dad. He’s a great man. He’s still living. He’s still living, 81 this year. Taught me a lot, but he worked 14 to 16 hours a day. He was a route salesman for a bread company, blue collar as you can get. I mean, just a hardworking man, but he worked all the time.
Heidi Wilcox:
Never sick.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Never sick. Yeah, he never missed … Thank you. He never missed a day of work his entire life, even for sickness. 40 some years, amazing. Well, hard work is a good value. It’s a good thing to aspire to, but if we become workaholics it would destroy our marriages. It may not cause us to get a divorce, but it will cause our marriages to limp along because one of the key ingredient for any marriage is intimacy. You can’t be intimate with somebody that you don’t see or value the … To be intimate with somebody especially, the higher the priority and marriage, other than God, is the highest priority for a couple, then you have to learn intimacy. Intimacy is learned.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It’s not something that comes natural for us because we all have different personalities. Some of us are more of the romantic type, like myself. Just my personality, the way I was raised, I’m more of that romantic type. Well, that comes with all kinds of challenges to it. Some of us come from a more distant family. They could never find consistency in their family, so they just learned to be the isolators. A good resource, and we talked a little bit about this, is called the Attachment Styles of Loving. Dr. Steve Stratton, one of our counseling professors, did his dissertation in this. He’s a good resource for this.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, isn’t he?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
He is. Just learning how we attached as children to our parents can be so helpful to our self-awareness, because we’ll bring that same attachment style into our marriage, or to our … Many of our listeners aren’t married, and the same is true for singleness, or whatever. Any of our important relationships we bring this attachment style, both the positive and the negative way.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, we do. Because you mentioned self-awareness, are there other ways that we can build sustainable, thriving marriages?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes. Yes. Love is in the singular, but actually we know there are five types love. There’s five types. C.S. Lewis wrote a book called The Four Loves, but he talked about a fifth love too. I’ll talk to you about those. If you want a thriving marriage, you have to know what those five types of loves are and you have to learn how to engage those loves. Again, this doesn’t come easy for most of us. Agape love is the foundation of all these loves. Agape love is the love that God gives us, this unconditional, unmerited love. God loves us. God loves us whether we love him back or not.
Heidi Wilcox:
Isn’t that amazing?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
That’s an amazing thought, because most of my love is dependent on certain things.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right? Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Expectations.
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Dependency means expectations, so that’s key. Again, we have to learn ourselves that we are loved unconditionally. That’s the only way we’re going to be able to give unconditional love. That’s a work in progress, because we may feel like giving unconditional love and showing unconditional love today and tomorrow. It may be a huge challenge to do it, but learning that over a lifetime, sustaining that, growing into it, so much of life is learning how to be consistent. We get these one and dones. Like, “Oh, I learned it.” “No, you didn’t.” I had to professor in graduate school, Dr. [inaudible 00:43:57], he was a Turkish, Jewish man. He taught me Hebrew. He said, “Repetition is the mother of all learning.”
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Here I am in this Hebrew class, I had taken two years of Hebrew in seminary. I had taught Hebrew for three years. I get in this class, he’s having us use these red markers, these green markers, these all orange markers, we’re underlining verbs and nouns. I’m like, oh, my gosh. I’m in kindergarten again. Dr. [inaudible 00:44:21] would say, “Repetition is the mother of our learning.” We heard that the whole semester. I’m like, oh, my gosh. That was one of those things I needed to hear in graduate school because it transfers to everything in life. Learning how to give unconditional love, Agape love, learning how to become friends and best friends with our spouse, Philia love. The city of Philadelphia, brotherly love, sisterly love, this friendship.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
How do you become a friend? The only way to become a friend of your spouse is to learn what hobbies they like. What do they like to do for fun? Getting to know them as a person. My wife would say, “Michael, why do you got to make everything so serious? Life is meant to be fun.” Not that it has to be that way every day, but we have to build fun into it. We have to build recreational hobbies, fun into our lives, or they just don’t happen. I see so many Christians, they’re so serious. They don’t know how to have fun. Their spouses, they’re dying on the vine because they want a spouse that knows how to have fun. Enjoyment of life. God gives us a sense of joy and we have to live in it.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right? I think it’s a little cliche now, but sometimes I think we had so much more fun when we were dating. Now we’re doing life and we just do our thing. What I hear you saying is do a little more of the dating thing.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
You’re right. Oh, that is so key. You never stop dating your spouse, your husband or wife. You can’t stop dating each other. When my marriage has struggled the most is when I have forgotten that, I’ve put my marriage on autopilot. Like, oh, yeah. We’re married. We don’t need to work at this stuff. All of a sudden, the biggest hindrance of love is not hate, but indifference. I think that’s really, really key. When you become indifferent to the one you love the most, that’s a sure sign that you’re going to struggle in your love relationship. The things that create a divorce, or create separation, or create lack of intimacy are not big things. They don’t start as big things. They always start as little creeping things that we don’t attend to.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Becoming a friend of our spouse is something we have to work at. Hopefully, we were friends when we were dating. We were becoming friends. We have to keep working at being friends because our life changes. We’re now working or working different jobs. Our family may be larger, whatever. There’s all these transitions in life that we have to not become a barrier to becoming friends, so that’s the second one. The third one is Storge love. Storge is a Greek word, all of these are Greek words. Storge is a word that means being comfortable with. It’s like an old shoe. You ever had a pair of old shoes?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
You don’t want to get rid of them because they feel so good on your foot?
Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, yes.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Well, that’s Storge love. You just feel so good in it. Marriage is meant to be that comfortable feeling where you can just be with each other. You’re, hopefully, sitting close to each other. By the way, closeness, touch and eye contact are key to a good marriage. They’re key to any good relationship that you want to have intimacy with anybody. I always tell myself, “Touch your spouse.” Storge is you put your arm around somebody, you feel comforted. You can let your hair down. It can just be. That’s Storge love. You have to develop that. Again, if you’re always serious you won’t have Storge love. Trust me. If you’re always working, you won’t have Storge love because you don’t have time for it.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Again, I see so many Christians that just don’t make time for this. The third one is Eros. The first several are mentioned in the New Testament. This one is not mentioned in the Bible, but it’s mentioned in other Greek literature. Actually, in the Old Testament, there’s a great example of Eros love. It’s the Song of Solomon. That book is one of the most gorgeous books, because it’s all about Eros love. It’s all about romantic love. Without romantic loves, our marriages will die. They will die because we have to cultivate romance, and that means … We have to learn what our spouse likes about romance because people are different. What may be romantic to one spouse is different to another person, so we need to learn what our spouse likes in terms of romance.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right? I told my husband when we were dating, I was like, “Do not play me those sappy love songs.” I do not … Some of them I like, but some of them I’m like, “I would stay awake just to hear you breathing,” I’m like, that’s creepy. Do not play that for me.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Exactly. That is so true, Heidi. I think what we think is romantic may not be what our spouse thinks is romantic. Our role as husband and wife is to learn what our lover, what our darling companions, like about romance. Hopefully, they’ll do the same for us. We’ll do it for each other. Then the last one is Epithumia. That is in the New Testament. C.S. Lewis does not mention that one as one of the four loves, but he talks about it in the book. It’s the word desire, it’s translated desire. Without desire, marriages won’t thrive. This is primarily sexual desire, but it’s desire of any kind of attraction to one another. Hopefully, again, when we were dating we were attracted. I guess, unless it was an arranged marriage. In the west, most of our marriages or our dating relationship have some kind of attraction.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Again, what attracts one person may be so totally different for another person, but we know what attracts us. Right? You have to cultivate that. It is a feeling. Sometimes people say, “Well, I don’t have those feelings,” whatever, “in a marriage.” Well, you have to want it. You have to cultivate that feeling. It’s a will, you have to will it and it will come. You don’t have to have good feelings all the time, but you have to cultivate those feelings. You have to set yourself, your relationship, up for success to have those feelings, because God created all those five types of love. If any of those are not working well, our marriages won’t work well. It’s just really crucial. I’m passionate about these things because in my own life, I’ve both had successes and failures in all these areas. Right?
Heidi Wilcox:
I think it’s so important too, that we acknowledge the successes and the failures. Because I think growing up on the outside, I looked at marriages and I thought, oh, these people are perfect. Never argue, never have fights and leave the house for a minute. I’m like, oh, my goodness. You know?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yes. That’s right. The good point we have to-
Heidi Wilcox:
Not leave permanently, you just take a jog around the block.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Take a breather, because anger is part of marriage. I’ve never seen a marriage that didn’t have anger in it, because there’re going to be things that frustrate us about each other. There’s going to be things that just irritate us about each other, but here’s what I’ve learned, especially more recently, that if there’s something negative in our marriage it must be dealt with quickly and not fester in our lives. Because we’re so self-centered, and because we want to be right, I come … God bless my mother and father. If my father’s listening to this, then he’ll have to forgive me, but I come from a family that always had to be right. That became problematic in my marriage because I never knew when to let things go. I see a lot of marriages that struggle with that.
Heidi Wilcox:
It’s hard, right?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It’s really hard.
Heidi Wilcox:
My dad told me, we went out to dinner two weeks before I was getting married, and he said something to the effect of, because I got married later in life, and he was like, “Heidi, you do things your way. That’s fine, but you need to know that you are not always right.” I was like, “Excuse me, dad?” He was right, by the way.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Even when we don’t want people to be right, they’re right. Aren’t they?
Heidi Wilcox:
He’s a very wise man.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah, because being right … I heard this said too, it’s like even when your spouse is saying things that we don’t agree with, it’s better to comfort them as they process what their processing than trying to be right. Men especially, this is true of a lot of men. It could be true of women too, but I know it’s very true of men. That is, they want to fix a problem as soon as it happens. Typically, again, I know this is somewhat stereotypical and I know there’s variations to this, but typically speaking women enjoy expressing their feelings and don’t need a quick fix when they’re sharing their feelings.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
If they’re dealing with some kind of issue, they just need to be listened to. I struggle with that so much in my marriage, just thinking Robin needs me to fix this, and she didn’t. She just needed me to listen and let her talk about what it is that was bothering her. The freedom of the spirit of gentleness is learning how to let people be and not feeling like it’s going to destroy the marriage. That’s something I’ve learned about myself and something that helps me in my own marriage.
Heidi Wilcox:
That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing about your journey.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Absolutely. Happy to talk about it. We-
Heidi Wilcox:
If-
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Go ahead. I’m sorry.
Heidi Wilcox:
If we could, really quick, I want to talk about what the role of counseling has been, because you mentioned that. What has the role of counseling been for you and/or separately, together?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Sure. Well, primarily counseling for me was gaining self-awareness. Again, trying to understand how my own family of origins affects me, the way I love, and how that translates into my marriage, or to my parenting, or whatever. It’s been really good for me because one thing I’ve learned, Heidi, in counseling is that I’m very performance driven. That doesn’t serve me real well in my relationships. In fact, it’s very counterproductive in marriage, or being a teacher, or being a parent. I think a lot of Christian leaders are struggling with performance driven lives and it’s wreaking havoc. It’s something that counseling has helped me with. Marriage counseling, I would recommend for any couple. I don’t care if you think you got the best marriage, every marriage can benefit from marital counseling.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
A counselor once said to me, “Every marriage can benefit from tuneups, because there’s things that you may have done well that you need to tune up on. There’s things you forgot.” One very prominent Christian leader, I won’t mention his name, but he’s a very well known pastor, but he’s going through cancer, and probably people can put some of that together. He said recently, he says, “I don’t have much time to live, but I want to go back into marital counseling because there’s things my wife has been trying to help me to understand in our marriage, but I don’t feel like I’ve been listening to her.” Here, this person has very little time left on this earth, again, very well respected pastor, teacher, and he realizes he still can benefit from marital counseling.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Isn’t that something?
Heidi Wilcox:
What a gift to be like, this is what I want to do with the person I love when I know I don’t have very much time.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Yeah. Counseling can be … For some people it’s like, oh, I don’t need counseling because if I go to counseling, there’s something wrong with me. It can be so negative for people, but Christian counseling especially is meant to help us thrive. It’s meant to help us be healthy. There are people that can see things in our lives that we just can’t see for ourselves. When you go to marital counseling, if they’re a good marital counselor they will help you to learn, to communicate to each other where you both can hear each other. Because that’s another problem in marriage, is that you may be saying one thing and your spouse is saying another, but you’re not hearing each other. It’s like you’re talking to the wall. Without good communication, you can’t have good relationships. It’s not possible.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right? It is not possible.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
We know this.
Heidi Wilcox:
I want to be mindful of our time too, but I want to talk a little bit about your … In addition to being a professor here and chair of the Department of Inductive Bible study, you’re also the co-director of Anglican Studies and Formation, so can you tell us a little bit about what the offering is in case people listening are interested and things like that?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Absolutely. I’m a co-director of that program with Dr. Winfield Bevins.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, Winfield.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
We get to co-direct that together and that’s a lot of fun. I like sharing that role with him. We compliment each other in a lot of ways, but what we seek to do is to provide a study program of Anglican history, and polity, and worship, and theology for students who want to explore or already know they’re going into an Anglican tradition of Christianity. As far as the study program, it’s about five or six classes that immerses you in Anglican studies. As far as the formation piece here on campus, we offer the daily office, which is a fancy word for prayer times. We call it morning and evening prayer. We also offer a weekly, sometimes multiple Eucharistic services, because in Anglicanism the Eucharist is almost in every worship service in most Anglican churches, I will say. We highly value the table and the word, the word and the table in ancient, future worship. That’s what we do here. I’ve been co-directing for about three years with Winfield.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Really enjoy that work and just what it allows me to do, in addition to teaching the Bible.
Heidi Wilcox:
They definitely go hand in hand.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
They do. I say Anglican Christianity is basically the Bible through prayer. We have what’s called a Book of Common Prayer, which if you’ve ever looked at a Book of Common Prayer then you know that 80% to 90% of it is from scripture. It’s just straight from scripture. Anglican Christianity is a tradition that believes from its beginnings that the Bible is meant to be prayed. I love that about that part of Christianity, that tradition. It was something that attracted me into that tradition, because I’m a convert from both being a Presbyterian and a Methodist. I’ve been an Anglican probably for the last 10 years.
Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow. Wow. I believe you’re also writing, you’re on sabbatical right now, writing a commentary. Then I don’t remember if you’re currently working on the book on marriage or it’s just in your head a little bit.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Well, thank you for asking that one. Part of the role as a professor is we get, hopefully, a regular sabbatical if we’ve proven that we can do the project that we said we will do. Well, I’m working on a commentary in First and Second Chronicles in the Old Testament, and a little early Jewish text called the Prayer of Manasseh. It’s a commentary on the Greek text, not the Hebrew text. It’s been an eight long year project. I got the contract a long time ago, but it’s been a long journey. I’m just thankful because I’m going to be able to finish it during the sabbatical.
Heidi Wilcox:
Wonderful.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I’m very excited. It’s a part of what’s called the Septuagint Commentary Series with Brill Publishers, which is a Dutch publisher. It’s been a joy to write. It’s been hard to write because it’s been such a long project, but I’ve learned a lot about that little … Well, I won’t say little. It’s a big book in the Old Testament. I’ve enjoyed that. Robin and I are very passionate about how to talk about living out a healthy, sustainable marriage just through our own successes and failures. We want to either write some articles or a book coming out of this sabbatical. We’re exploring ways to talk about that. I just really believe there’s a crisis in Christian marriages. I know my own self, with my own struggles, that if I can be a help to somebody by talking about my own journey, and Robin her journey, then I want to do that, because I want the Lord to save as many marriages and help marriages thrive. I really do.
Heidi Wilcox:
Right. For sure. Well, you have an open invitation to come back anytime when you all write the book, the articles. Would love to have you back to talk about that.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Thank you. I’d love to. I’d love to.
Heidi Wilcox:
Before we wrap up, is there anything else you’d like to say that I didn’t … I have one question I ask everyone, but before I do that, is there anything else you’d like to say that I didn’t know to ask?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Not really. As my wife will tell me, I can be very long winded, so I will be quiet now. There’s a lot that I could talk about, but I won’t. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
Heidi Wilcox:
Me too.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
I really enjoy talking with you, Heidi.
Heidi Wilcox:
I do feel like we could just keep going. It’s been so fun.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
It’s true.
Heidi Wilcox:
All right. The one question I ask everyone, because the show is called the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast, what is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life right now?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Well, it has to do with having enjoyment in my life. I’ve talked a little bit about that during our podcast, but for me, it’s a new appreciation, again, for riding bikes with Robin. I love that I can stay healthy physically by doing that. I love that I can spend time with Robin doing that. I love being with her. I love seeing central Kentucky, seeing the beautiful landscapes of central Kentucky. We’ve seen some amazing sunsets in the last eight months, just riding here in central Kentucky. I’m amazed at how beautiful God has made this part of the country. That’s been so much fun. We had some older bikes and it was time to upgrade. We bought those about a year ago.
Heidi Wilcox:
What kind of bikes do you have?
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Oh, it’s a hybrid bike. It’s a little bit off road, but it’s primarily for cruising. Then Robin has a straight, more of a cruising bike. There’s a lot of great trails here on Harrisburg Road.
Heidi Wilcox:
There are.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
We ride these trails here. We ride in Danville. We ride in various places. We’re not part of a cycling club. I know there’s some of our folks here in campus that do that. We’re not quite that serious. We just enjoy getting out almost every evening, if the weather allows, and just decompressing, just talking, just looking and just being. It creates a more relaxed time in our lives. I don’t want to be part of the rat race anymore. I think for too long I was just a workaholic. I want to enjoy life the way God created life to be. That’s one little practice that I enjoy doing, especially with Robin.
Heidi Wilcox:
I love that. I love that. Dr. Matlock, this conversation has been such a joy. Thank you so much for taking the time to come by and share.
Dr. Michael Matlock:
Thank you, Heidi. I enjoyed it.
Heidi Wilcox:
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Dr. Matlock. I don’t know about you, but I found what he had to say about calling and building sustainable, thriving marriages especially encouraging and insightful. It was just such a joy to get to know him as a person, and as a husband of Robin, and father to his children, and beloved son of the God most high. If you see Dr. Matlock, be sure to thank him for being a part of the podcast today. As always, you can follow us in all the places on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at @AsburySeminary. Until next time, I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.
