Rosario and Callie Picardo: Money Talks

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Overview

Today on the podcast, we’re joined by Callie and Rosario Picardo. Roz is an M.Div. alum of Asbury Seminary and a church planter. He currently serves as Director of Houses of Study at United Theological Seminary and co-pastor of Mosaic Church, a multiethnic church he started in 2017. He also teaches in the masters and doctoral programs at United and is the founder of Picardo Coaching LLC. His wife Callie is Vice President for Development at United Theological Seminary and has spent her career in finance and fundraising. She is a member of the preaching team at Mosaic and is the founder of Deep Roots Financial Coaching. Roz and Callie have been married 11 years and are raising 3 awesome daughters. Money Talks, that released July 5 is their first book together. It provides a biblical take on money and how Christians are called to operate in a world where money often takes center stage. It provides wisdom around God’s view of things like spending, earning, saving and giving differently.

And thanks to the generosity of Roz and Callie, listeners of this show receive a special 20% discount when you purchase the book from Market Square Books with the code 20mtalk. That’s 20mtalk for 20% off their book Money Talks. So you’ll want to be sure to grab a copy of that and we’ll link all the links for you in the show notes. So now let’s listen to my conversation with Callie and Roz!

*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.

Rosario Picardo, Church Planter. Director of Houses of Study at United Theological Seminary and co-pastor of Mosaic Church.

Rosario is an M.Div. alum of Asbury Seminary and a church planter. He currently serves as Director of Houses of Study at United Theological Seminary and co-pastor of Mosaic Church, a multiethnic church he started in 2017. Roz also teaches in the masters and doctoral programs at United and is the founder of Picardo Coaching LLC.

Callie Picardo,
Vice President for Development at United Theological Seminary

Callie is Vice President for Development at United Theological Seminary and has spent her career in finance and fundraising. She is a member of the preaching team at Mosaic and is the founder of Deep Roots Financial Coaching.

Heidi Wilcox, host of the Thrive Podcast

Writer, podcaster, and social media manager, Heidi Wilcox shares stories of truth, justice, healing and hope. She is best known as the host of Spotlight, (especially her blooper reel) highlighting news, events, culturally relevant topics and stories of the ways alumni, current students and faculty are attempting something big for God. If you can’t find her, she’s probably cheering on her Kentucky Wildcats, enjoying a cup of coffee, reading or spending time with her husband, Wes.

Transcript

Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary Podcast. I’m your host, Heidi E. Wilcox, bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders, and people just like you, who are looking to connect where your passion meets the world’s deep needs. Today on the podcast we’re joined by Rosario and Callie Picardo.

Heidi Wilcox:
Ros is an M.Div alum of Asbury Seminary and a church planter. He currently serves as Director of Houses of Study at United Theological Seminary and co-pastor of Mosaic Church, a multi-ethnic church he started in 2017. He also teaches in the masters and doctoral programs at United and is the founder of Picardo Coaching LLC. His wife, Callie, is Vice President for Development at United Theological Seminary and has spent her career in finance and fundraising.

Heidi Wilcox:
She’s a member of the preaching team at Mosaic and is the founder of Deep Roots Financial Coaching. Ros and Callie have been married 11 years and are raising three awesome daughters. Money Talks, that released July 5th, is their first book that they have written together. It provides a biblical take on money and how Christians are called to operate in a world where money often takes center stage. It provides wisdom around God’s view of things like spending, earning, saving, and giving differently.

Heidi Wilcox:
Thanks to the generosity of Ros and Callie, listeners of this show will receive a special 20% discount when you purchase the book from Market Square Books with the code 20MTalk. That’s 20MTalk for 20% off their book, Money Talks. So you want to be sure to grab a copy of that and we’ll link all the links for you in the show notes. Now let’s listen to my conversation with Callie and Ros.

Heidi Wilcox:
Ros, Callie, thank you so much for being part of Thrive today. It’s just a delight to have you here.

Callie Picardo:
Thanks for having us. We’re excited to be with you.

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. We appreciate the opportunity.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. It’s really exciting. Now Ros, you’re an alum of the seminary. Is that right?

Rosario Picardo:
Yes. I graduated with my M.Div in 2007. I had to think back. Yeah, 2007. It seems like it was yesterday though.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. I know. Time just flies.

Rosario Picardo:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Callie, you did not graduate from the seminary, which we’ll forgive you for.

Callie Picardo:
But I’m from Kentucky. I’m from Lexington. So I grew up with Wilmore and Asbury right down the road.

Heidi Wilcox:
Awesome. Awesome. How did you guys meet then?

Callie Picardo:
We actually met at Starbucks.

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. As a church planter, I would spend a lot of my time in coffee shops, restaurants, wherever, just to meet people and get together for conversation. I was meeting with somebody that was in charge of marketing. He was helping me with the church. After our meeting was over, he had another meeting with this young lady by the name of Callie. And so, he introduced me to her and I got her business card. She was sharing with me how she helps donors and church giving and those types of things.

Callie Picardo:
I worked for a group called National Christian Foundation, Kentucky, and so worked with ministry leaders all the time. And so, I thought, “Hey, oh, a good pastor. I can help them maybe with the donors at their church.”

Rosario Picardo:
And I was thinking, “Oh, she’s cute.” So I emailed her and asked her to get together. We met at Panera Bread and I thought it was a date because I’m a little slow sometimes.

Callie Picardo:
I thought it was a business meeting. He emailed my work email together and asked to get together for coffee. Of course, he wanted to talk about charitable giving. Doesn’t everybody? Right?

Rosario Picardo:
And so, when we got together, then she pulled out her work folder and my jaw dropped a little bit and I tried to recover.

Callie Picardo:
I looked down and realized he didn’t have a ring on his finger. I know not all pastors are married, but I’d never really known any that weren’t. And so, I just assumed this guy’s married. Then I realized, “Oh, he thinks this is a date?” But I was on work time. I wasn’t going to be going on dates during work. That doesn’t work. So I just kept saying, “Well, tell me more about the donors of Embrace Church.” And he kept saying, “Well, what do you like to do for fun?” And so, we just were back and forth and back and forth. But needless to say, less than a year later, we were married.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, wow. Wow. Once you guys knew, you knew.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. It took a couple months, but then once we got past the, “Okay, he likes me. Is this really right? Is this God?” And then it was so clear it was God that we were like, “Yep.”

Heidi Wilcox:
How did you know it was God?

Callie Picardo:
Oh, just a lot of prayer and God really just showing me that he’d given me feelings for Ros and this was who I was supposed to marry.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. John Wesley talks about this. Whenever there’s a calling, there’s an inward call and an outward call. Of course, inwardly, you have emotions and feelings and feel like you have maybe some sort of revelation. But there’s an outward call that matches that. What do your friends think? That my friends that met Callie, they grilled her a little bit.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. He had friends that were like gatekeepers. They weren’t going to let him date just any girl off the street. Fortunately, I knew some of them from back in high school, some of those close friends. I didn’t date any of the other kids in the youth groups, so they didn’t have anything bad to say about me. And so, they were like, “Yeah, no one said anything bad about her in high school, and she seems like she’s still good today.” But having those friends looking out for you makes a big difference.

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. I think it’s that confirmation that we get, inward and outward.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, for sure. How does church planning and financial… Church planting? Did I say planning? Church planting and financial planning, how do those go together?

Rosario Picardo:
Well, I mean, church planting is of course a passion of mine, and probably Callie’s too. It’s introducing people to the kingdom of God. And so, we know that church plants oftentimes reach more unchurched or need church people. They are able to take risk and do things that may be established or institutional mindset churches don’t do. And so, how do you fund those things? Well, if we know that money is a part of discipleship, then there’s that natural partnership that goes with the fundraising piece.

Rosario Picardo:
And so, I think that’s where Callie has helped me and has helped our churches when we’ve thought about, what does it mean for people to grow in their spiritual journey? Because oftentimes the last conversion that happens is the checkbook conversion. We tell God, “You can have everything else. You can be my savior and save me from my sins, but I don’t know about you being Lord of my life when it means being Lord over my finances too.”

Callie Picardo:
The other thing I’ve noticed with church plants, I don’t know if this is all church plants, but they tend to have the assumption that we’ve got people coming that are brand new, hopefully people that have never known Jesus before. So they take the time to do some teaching, to do some explaining of things that maybe institutional churches that have same people every week, they’re not used to doing. Some churches just say, “Hey, now we’re going to collect our tithes and offering.”

Callie Picardo:
Someone who’s not a believer in Jesus is like, “What are tithes? What are offering? You want my money why? What are you going to do with it?” And so, we really in our church take a lot of time to explain things, like, “Hey, here’s why we’re doing communion. Here’s why we take up an offering. God doesn’t want your money, but God wants your heart. And the Bible says where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. So we want you to be able to grow in your faith, and giving is a way we’ve grown in our own faith by saying, ‘God, we trust you with all that we have and with all that we are.'”

Callie Picardo:
And so, to do some teaching and explaining and just helping people understand what stewardship looks like, what that word even means, gets people excited about giving.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I think explaining why we do what we do is so important. Well, especially for people who’ve never been to church. But I would say, even somebody like me who grew up in church, there are times that I’m like, “We do this. I don’t understand why we do what we do. What does this actually mean?” So I think when you understand that, it makes your faith more alive and gives you the ability to grow more.

Rosario Picardo:
Absolutely.

Callie Picardo:
It’s not just something you do. It’s got a purpose.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, yes, yes. For sure. Before we get in too deep, you guys started a podcast recently as well called Better Together. How did you guys get that started?

Rosario Picardo:
Well, that phrase “Better Together” actually came from a prayer that Callie would pray.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. When I was single, I had this long list of everything that I wanted in a guy. He has to love Jesus. He has to be like six feet tall and drop dead gorgeous. He has to like hiking and the beach and reading, crazy list, that half of it didn’t even truly matter. But you put it out there and like, “Hey, God, can I have all this?” Finally, I just boil it down. I’m like, “Okay, God. If I’m actually supposed to be married, just can it be someone that we can serve you better together than we can apart?”

Callie Picardo:
So that was my prayer, “Lord, I’ll be single if you want me to be single.” But I was tired of dating guys that were Christians, but where I felt like I was always just trying to pull them along, and God really answered that in Ros. He brings out the best in me and I bring out the best in him. We’re better in ministry together than we were single. And then, Ros started a church in 2017, that has that better together tagline as well.

Callie Picardo:
That was a multi-ethnic church started by co-pastors, which were United Methodists. And so, normally the church planting way is send one pastor on their own, but Jesus sent people out two by two. And so, they said, “What if we did this together?” And so, that’s the whole idea of our church, Mosaic, is that idea that we’re better together. The Mosaic isn’t complete without.

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. It’s realizing that Satan wants to steal, kill, and destroy, and his goal is to divide. But God always wants to unify and bring unification. And so, that’s under the banner of Jesus and that’s what we try to do and how we came up with the name.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. Were you guys the co-church planters, or how did that work?

Callie Picardo:
I’m on the preaching team.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Okay.

Callie Picardo:
But I’m not officially a pastor ordained there, anything licensed official.

Heidi Wilcox:
Got you. Got you. Okay, cool. In your book that we’re going to talk about more in a minute, but in many talks, you guys talked about your stories of personal identity and growing that, learning to understand that more deeply in Christ. And so, each of you has separate stories, of course. Ros, in the book, it mentioned 2020 was a pivotal moment for you in understanding your identity.

Heidi Wilcox:
Callie, for you, you talked about between a job transition that you really had to figure out who you were in Christ. We can start with you, Ros, if you like. Would you each tell us those stories?

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. I think with 2020, you reevaluate what is most important. And so, for us, and for myself, the time of family was huge because as an Enneagram three, I am hard charging. I want to be productive. I want to just get going. What do you do when everything comes to a screeching halt? What do you do when there’s no daycare and you have two toddlers that you have to entertain during the day?

Callie Picardo:
And I was pregnant. I was in my third trimester of pregnancy in March, when all the shutdown started.

Rosario Picardo:
Your house is small and you’re trying to record sermons and you’re trying to-

Callie Picardo:
Because you’re trying to learn how to do church virtually where everything’s pre-recorded and you’re uploading and downloading and…

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Rosario Picardo:
I think the biggest blessing was that time with family, sitting around the dinner table, and we we’ve gotten that more and more. I think it was something before, not that I didn’t do that, but it was less frequent. I see the importance of sitting around the table, even if it’s just for a few minutes, as our girls come and they pray together and we eat. There’s something special about that. So the family time is important and letting go of the rat race that we are often in to be productive.

Rosario Picardo:
When you think about it, everybody wants a hack. Everybody wants ways or tips or tricks. Part of it is we’re operating outside of God’s design when we are running ourselves ragged. And so, 2020, even though it was a hard year for many people, in leadership, definitely hard. But the blessing in that was finding and rediscovering what our priorities should be.

Callie Picardo:
It’s an ongoing battle, but that’s why we wanted one of the chapters of our book, Money Talks, to the on earning, because what does it look like to earn money in a way that lines up with God’s word, where it’s not working 24/7, but it’s working 24/6. It’s having Sabbath rest. We’re not human doings, we’re human beings. What does it look like to be, and be okay with not getting everything done, but knowing that God is still God and God is going to use it if we’re looking to Him first and if we’re trying to really work for God and not for people. Not trying to win the approval of others.

Callie Picardo:
But that’s why we wanted to have that as an important chapter of the book, because the world says, “Chase money. Money, the world’s way, says, “Chase me. Come after me. You need more and more and more. You’re never done. You can’t rest because you’ve got to keep earning more, whether it’s for your own worth in what you do.” I mean, sometimes we make busy-ness an idol, I mean, and work. That’s the acceptable sin, is workaholism and finding our identity there because, clearly, we’re working for God. We’ve got a lot to do.

Callie Picardo:
But that’s not God’s way. And if we’re not careful, we can make even Christian work, we can make the sacred secular if we’re taking God out of it, if it’s all about us. On the flip side street too, you don’t have to be a pastor in Christian ministry to work for God. We can make the secular sacred by putting God first. I share the story of my Aunt Sherry in the book, and she is so special to me. She’s a strong Christian woman, but she’s worked as a financial advisor. She always saw work as the way she made money so she could do ministry on the side.

Heidi Wilcox:
Interesting.

Callie Picardo:
Well, God convicted her and said, “No, I want all of your time. All of you can be ministry.” And so, she started looking, “Okay, how can I care for my clients and care for my coworkers in a way that honors God? How do I lift up the people that are unseen in the office? How do I pray for my clients and pray for my coworkers and love on them with the love of Jesus Christ as I’m working as a financial advisor?” And so, anything can be ministry if we put God first in it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So it wasn’t like she changed jobs. She just started doing the job she was currently doing differently. Yeah. Yeah.

Callie Picardo:
It’s all a heart and a mind shift, mindset shift.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I think that’s awesome. I will be thinking about that after we end our conversation today. What did you all learn… Because we didn’t get to your story of personal identity, Callie. Yeah. That’s an ongoing journey, but if you could just tell me a little bit about how you came to understand your identity in Christ.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. When I lived in Kentucky, I worked, as I mentioned, for National Christian Foundation at their Kentucky office and loved it. I’d been in investment banking right out of college and that was hard for me. Then I got to the sweet space of being able to combine my faith with generosity, with teaching people what God’s Word said about finance and about giving. And I loved it.

Callie Picardo:
Then God called us to move to Dayton, Ohio. I had my whole hashing it out with God like, “God, but I love being in Kentucky. I’m near my family. We just bought a new house to be right where our church is. We’ve got friends. I’ve got a job I love. I’m working for you, Lord. God, don’t you want me to stay here? I love my life here.” I felt like God said, “Callie, if you love your life, you’ll lose it. And if you lose it for my sake, you’ll gain it.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.

Callie Picardo:
I said, “Oh. Okay, God. You’re God. Okay, Lord, we will go to Dayton, Ohio. But then, my boss was willing to let me keep working in Ohio for him in Kentucky and doing it remotely. I was like, “Great. This is awesome. I can follow God and have what I want too.” And God said, “I want you to give up that job.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh no.

Callie Picardo:
I said, “Okay, God. Well, what do you have next?” I felt like God said, “I want you to trust me. I want you to quit that job and I want you to just step on faith. I’ll tell you when the next job comes.” And-

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow. That’s a huge step of faith.

Callie Picardo:
Oh my goodness. Also just, I’ve always worked. I loved working. I was in a job I loved, clearly. I didn’t have kids. Didn’t have family members that needed care. I didn’t know anyone that didn’t work, who loved to work, who could work, who didn’t have a reason not to.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. Right.

Callie Picardo:
And so, it was a major identity shift, because if I’m honest, I found a lot of my worth in what I did and in being a working woman and in loving Jesus. But being in leadership type roles and moving to a new place… I love Ros, but I didn’t want my identity as Ros’s wife either. And God really was like, “No, your identity is as a child of God.” And so, that was such a sweet year. I got to spend basically a year of doing everything I would have done in retirement, but I was 30, with the energy of a 30 year old.

Callie Picardo:
I got involved in our church. I was basically on staff without getting paid. I got involved in the food pantry, and in tutoring after school, and just building intentional relationships. It was such an awesome year, but it stretched me. And so, my prayer that year became, “God, I love you and I trust you. I love you and I trust you.” And I would just say it over and over again when I started to be like, “God, those gaps in resume, can you fill those? The longer I’m without work, you know, God, the harder it is to find work.”

Callie Picardo:
God kept saying, “Callie, you know I’m God, right?” I’m like, “Oh yes, God. I love you and I trust you.” And then, it was a year to the day from when I left my job in Kentucky, that God opened the job I have now, United Theological Seminary, doing fundraising here. Just timing wise, they tried to hire me sooner, and that timing wouldn’t have worked. I mean, just in hindsight, just knowing what I know now, God’s timing is perfect. His way is perfect. God used that year of not working to just build deep relationships for us in Ohio, but also to grow me in my own heart to get me ready for what was next.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t always love the process of how He does those things, but I love being on the other side of those things and being able to look [crosstalk 00:20:13]-

Callie Picardo:
The hindsight plan, like, “Oh my God, you were so good.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why was now the right time to write Money Talks, that, well, released on July 5th?

Rosario Picardo:
Well, we actually wrote it… Started sooner on it, the idea of it, but then the pandemic hit and everything else. It’s actually, we believe, delayed with God’s perfect timing, of course. Churches and Christians have to rethink their view in theology of money because right now we’re only hearing what the world says about money, and that is the message that we actually download and believe and live out. But Christ followers are called to do something and be about something different.

Rosario Picardo:
And so, what does it mean? Not just to earn, save, give, and spend, but how to honor God with all of it. Not just the segment of it, not just a percentage of it, but all of it. And so, as churches think about this with less coming in the offering plate in the future because of the declining economy, how can we challenge Christ followers to grow in this spiritual journey? And so, you can’t really talk about giving until you tackle the spending and the debt.

Rosario Picardo:
People want to give, they just don’t know how, because they think, “Well, I have student loans. I have a mortgage. I have a car payment. I have all of these things and yet God is asking me to give. How do I do that?”

Callie Picardo:
And you started giving while you’re [inaudible 00:21:58] on your student loans.

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. God challenged me to do that when I graduated from Asbury, and I had probably over $50,000 in debt. I was the first in my family to go to college. I went in the military and got the Montgomery GI bill and worked a job, but still had to have debt really. I remember when I went into ministry, the temptation was not to give to God because I had to pay off these student loans. And so, I decided that I was going to aggressively pay the loans with any extra gift that I had, whether it was birthday money, Christmas money, I was going to apply extra to the loan, but I was also going to start tithing. With that, a few years later, God ended up just setting it wholly free with-

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.

Rosario Picardo:
That I’m debt free. And so, when we get people to a position of being debt-free, they’re more free to follow God when God calls them to do something. They’re not just enslaved to money or to debt. Or if God is calling you to serve in a certain area or maybe be a missionary somewhere, and you can’t say, “Well, God, I have all this debt.” It allows more freedom and flexibility in how God uses us.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, for sure. Before we go any further, I want to make sure our listeners know where to get your book. You’ve been generous enough to offer a 20% off discount just for our listeners. It’s at Market Square Books and we will link it in our show notes. The code is 20MTalk. That will all be linked in the show notes so you guys can go grab a copy of that as well. Be sure to thank Callie and Ros as well, because their book, I read it to prepare for this, thoroughly enjoyed. It had some takeaways for me. Just thinking about where I get my own security. So yeah. Thank you, guys, so much.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. Our prayer is that God will use this book to help people grow in their faith. It’s got practical tips for being a good steward of all your finances, but the real significance of the book is just having a heart that is fully surrendered to God in every area, especially this area of finance that can have such a hold on our hearts. I mean, we have the advertising industry constantly bombarding us with messages, that you need the latest, greatest, the best, the next.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Callie Picardo:
To the point where we get drawn away. We have so many messages against following God with our money, that it takes being intentional and stopping and reflecting on what really matters, on putting God first with how we work, how we earn, how we spend, how we give, and how we save too, like doing it in a way with a heart for the Lord where the money itself, how much money is in the bank account, doesn’t take the place of God as Lord of our life.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes. One of the things that you talk about is money talks to us in different ways, and I think in ways I didn’t realize before reading the book. It says things like, “Taste me, squander me, hoard me.” How is God’s view of the things you were just talking about, spending, earning, saving, and giving different from the world’s view?

Callie Picardo:
I think a big piece of it is what’s the focus? What’s the priority? Is it to impress others? Is it to find security to be able to sleep at night? Where are you looking for that? And so, if you’re looking to your money for how much is in the bank account… I’ve heard someone ask before, what would cause you more anxiety, if I told you that there was no money in your bank account, or if I told you that God didn’t exist?

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yeah. That makes it real.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. That convicted me. I was like, “Which would stress me out more?” Because so often, we look to that savings to give us that peace of mind. And not that you shouldn’t save, but if your security is there, then it has the wrong place in your heart. And so, we proactively are saving, but we also are practically giving, and often people have a hard time giving because they’re like, “Will I be saving enough?”

Callie Picardo:
And so, one of the things that helped us was we actually sat down with our financial advisor and said, “Can you help us run some numbers? Are we ever going to be able to retire one day?” Because we want to be able to do ministry for free. We probably won’t sit around doing nothing. We’ll probably keep doing a lot of what we’re doing. But we don’t want to worry about the paycheck one day.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. Right.

Callie Picardo:
And so, they ran the numbers, because we were like, “We’ve got this giving habit. We love giving. So, so much [crosstalk 00:26:43] giving-

Heidi Wilcox:
You can’t have [crosstalk 00:26:43].

Callie Picardo:
But are we doing enough saving? They ran the numbers and were able to show us that, yeah, to be able to live with your current lifestyle at that point, here’s some worst case scenario, best case scenario, and more likely scenario. And so, actually running the numbers gave us a lot of peace. I was working with a couple too that had always wanted to tithe, but they were scared to tithe, to give that 10% back. But they’d never really made a budget. And so-

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Callie Picardo:
… we sat down to make a budget. We took that 10% out first, we built in some money for saving, and then we made the rest of it work. Then they realized, “Oh, we can afford to tithe.” But so many people are afraid to do a budget. They think of budgets like a scary thing, like, “Oh my goodness, it’s going to be so rigid, so constricting.” But I gave the analogy. Not having a budget, it’s like throwing your money up in the air and hoping it lands where it’s supposed to land.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah.

Callie Picardo:
A budget’s just intentionally putting it where you want it to go. It’s a flexible document too. You live with it and then if it doesn’t work, you can change it. There’s so many online versions. I think Dave Ramsey has like an online budgeting platform. We use mint.com for our own bringing finances together so we can have a budget, especially, if it pulls in our credit cards and our bank statements so that we really have everything in one place.

Callie Picardo:
It’s just a matter of being intentional, but then also checking, does that spending line up with what I say I care about? Like if I say I care about my family and spending good time with our kids, well, then, are we spending money setting aside for spending family time together, maybe for going on a family vacation? Or is the money go for like subscriptions to things that actually take our attention away from our kids?

Callie Picardo:
So having that check of looking at your spending. Does it line up with what you say you value? If it doesn’t, there are probably some little tweaks that you could make to really put your values first in the way you spend your money.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. I like what you said about money being a tool that we can use to do good in the world. But like you said, it’s easy… I know, for me, I have been convicted by your book in some things that have been happening in my own life about where I find my security and my identity, and was like, “Oh, I am a lot more comfortable when there’s money in the bank account than when we have larger expenditures that, yes, we save for, but I’m like, oh, that makes me nervous.” Yeah. How do we seek God first when we have to use money as part of our culture?

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think when it comes down to praying and asking God for direction when you have maybe a major purchase you need to make, or you’re feeling God challenging you to maybe increase giving or start giving, I think everything needs to be rooted and start in prayer and reading the scriptures. Jesus talked a majority about money, probably 80% of his talks, sermons, than anything else in the gospels. And so, I think there’s something about asking God for wisdom when it comes to, what do I do in this major situation? For myself, I like stuff. I admit that.

Heidi Wilcox:
Same.

Rosario Picardo:
And so, I heard it asked, would I make a purchase if nobody else saw it?

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh.

Rosario Picardo:
Would I buy this car if nobody else saw it, or this name, brand, whatever it may be. And so, that started to really get me thinking the motive behind it. I think God has a tendency of showing us our motives when we maybe look at our own insecurities and our own shadow side to see, how do we spend money and why do we do what we do? And thinking through it. Also, with that seeking wisdom is accountability. You have your spousal cooperation. You work together as a team. That’s how we do it. So we serve as each other’s accountability.

Rosario Picardo:
If you don’t have that, is there different groups that you could be a part of, whether it’s in your church or your community or another friend that is your accountability partner when it comes to, “Hey, what am I doing in spending money? How can I be a better steward in that?” See, it’s a balance because when you are so rigid, money still becomes a god.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes, yes.

Rosario Picardo:
But when you’re so loosey goosey, then money still becomes a god. So what is that balance where it’s a tool but God is your God and you’re not placing idols, because the thing that we try to… It still controls us. It either owns us or we own it. Same thing with our stuff. I think the same thing is true with money. And so, it’s really that change of perspective when it comes to how we view money.

Callie Picardo:
I think a good thing too that can help in so many areas of our life, but God gave us our emotions and He gave us our emotions for a reason. So often we feel them and we respond to them, but we don’t actually think about why we feel them. Something that’s helped me is when I’m feeling anxious, asking myself, “Okay, why am I feeling anxious?” Whether it’s I’m about to make a big purchase, am I making the right decision? Or whether it’s the, is there enough money?

Callie Picardo:
Okay. Or are my feeling that I need to have that? Why? Asking that deeper question to try to peel back the layers, because our emotions are a gift. And so, that’s a way to clue us in that something’s off, or I’m not feeling a peace. Why am I not feeling peace? What’s there?

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I like what you were saying about having freedom with money. I feel like, at least in my own life, it is striking that balance between having some rigidness and guidelines for how you spend money, but not letting that control you either. But not just being like, “Oh, well, whatever. I’m going to buy this, buy that.” Even giving, it has to be structured a little bit, or maybe a lot. I don’t know. But it’s a constant balance, I think. I don’t think there’s one, like, “Here you go, and then do this for the rest of your life.” I think it’s constantly changing. Would you guys agree with that?

Callie Picardo:
Definitely. That’s where, again, if you have a spouse, having that feedback can be really helpful because you are often wired differently than yourselves. No, I’ve seen it sometimes where you have two spenders or two savers, and people are aligned. But often, it seems like opposites attract.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes, for sure.

Callie Picardo:
And so, Ros and I are different. I am the planner, the type A, the has to be a certain way. So I can get stuck in doing things rigidly and Ros is the spontaneous-

Rosario Picardo:
I’m spontaneous. If I see a need, I want to meet a need immediately and run off and do it and want to give. And so, we had to come with a balance to plan spontaneous giving.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. So we plan for spontaneous giving. We have the spontaneous, but it’s planned for, because it would drive me nuts when Ros would be like, “Here’s a need, let’s fill it.” I’m like, “That is breaking our budget. That money has to come from somewhere.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes.

Callie Picardo:
But I needed to because I get in my rut and doing things. And then when God calls us to do something out of our comfort zone, when we let God stretch us, and there’s a need, my faith grows. The spontaneous is what grows my faith. But then, we need some structure, so we balance each other out in that. I would say, if you are a rigid person, maybe go to God and say, “God, is there anything that needs to change in the way I handle my finances?”

Callie Picardo:
If you are a very fluid, non planner, I’d say maybe go to God and say, “Hey, God, what do you want me to do with my finances for the next year? God, is there something, a system, that I need to put in place, just even to try for the next year?” Or if that’s too long, because you like change, well, maybe just try for the next 30 to 40 days. But make a commitment where, hey, for the next 30, 40 days, I’m going to try this.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You keep talking about go to God and ask him this, and I know everybody hears from God differently. But when you ask God a question like that for direction, how do you know? How does God speak to you

Rosario Picardo:
Go ahead.

Callie Picardo:
For me, I do a lot of journaling. And so, I do a lot of reading God’s word, but also writing out my prayers. Sometimes I’ll feel that impression on my heart, but I feel like God can speak through other people, through opportunities, through the Word, through circumstances. Sometimes we’re praying about a gift and we’re like, Well, how would we fund it?” And all of a sudden, we get like a tax refund or there’s an extra income that comes in. It’s like, “Oh, maybe that’s God providing so that we can do the gift that He wants us to do.”

Callie Picardo:
It’s a combination of circumstances, wise counsel, God’s Word, the Holy Spirit. God speaks to everyone differently. To me, it’s often a combination. But often, it’s the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart.

Rosario Picardo:
Yeah. I would say, usually, when you’re sitting down and you’re praying or you’re journaling or doing prayer walking, whatever it may be, the answer, for me, doesn’t come right then. It’s priming the pump really in my mind to be open. And so, later that day, if I’m mowing the lawn or taking the shower, that’s when God will hit me with a thought that otherwise wouldn’t come from me.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You guys, in your book, you take a look at what John Wesley has to say about money on the topic of finances in the book. Why did you choose Wesley, and Jesus of course, to be your guide?

Rosario Picardo:
I mean, I think because of the tradition we belong to with the Wesleyan tradition. Wesley saw an unprecedented revival take place, but part of that revival was holistic. And so, people’s lives were not only getting delivered and set free from addiction and all those types of things, but the people called Methodist ended up getting out of debt and accumulating wealth and were known for being generous.

Rosario Picardo:
And so, one of John Wesley’s pivotal points, when we think about it, was how he was going to go spend some money decorating his home. And then afterwards, a widower came up to him that maybe she was homeless or marginalized, and he didn’t have enough money in his pocket to really give to her to make an impact. And so, that really haunted him. Plus his upbringing with 19 siblings or whatever also gave him some humble beginnings as well. And so, I think that helped him at the start, shape his theology of money.

Heidi Wilcox:
Definitely.

Callie Picardo:
He started out with giving a small percentage away. I mean, he had like 20, 30 pounds, his first job. And so, he gave two pounds away and lived on the rest. But then, he tried to keep his lifestyle pretty consistent. So his giving grew to the point where toward the end of his life, he was giving away 98, 99% of his income. And so, he was living out this generosity and it clearly was impacting him. And then, he was teaching others.

Callie Picardo:
He wrote so much on money and work and just giving godly practical wisdom that is still relevant for today. I mean, he wrote it so many years ago and sometimes we think, “Well, that’s in the past, what do they know? So much of what he wrote, it still applies today. How do you earn a living but not at the expense of your physical health, your emotional health, your soul? How do you do it in a way where you are working for God? I mean, how do you give generously in a way that it’s making an impact?

Callie Picardo:
He had a lot to say on those different topics, as did Jesus, as you point out. I mean, Jesus, a quarter of his parables were on finances. And so, there’s a lot in scripture to learn as well and it still applies today.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I want to go back to the story you shared about your aunt and making the secular sacred, because we’re not all pastors or working in any kind of ministry. I guess I’m just curious how, when you have an office job or you work as a farmer, as anything you do, what are some things to think about, because you still have your to-do list that you have to do for your employer. But how can we start thinking about our jobs differently so that we are working for the Lord no matter what we’re doing?

Rosario Picardo:
I mean, Colossians 3:23 comes to mind when I hear this topic, and that is, essentially, do your work unto the Lord and not as you’re serving others or trying to appease others. I think of Brother Lawrence, who was that monk in the 18th century who really wanted to serve his brothers in the monastery. He wrote this great work, Practicing the Presence of God. But he would do that as he was washing dishes for his brother.

Rosario Picardo:
And so, it’s finding in the mundane, those holy moments that we serve an audience of one and it’s not the masses, but it’s one. And so, we do that no matter what our vocation is, because we strive to honor God. Some of those, what we view as mundane tasks, are some things that God really wants to use to teach us something in that moment.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. Are you washing the feet of your coworkers? Are you serving them? Are you willing to, “Hey, that trash is overflowing. I’m just going to take out the trash at work,” or, “Hey, my coworker looks like they’re having a bad day. How can I go and listen to them, pray for them, maybe buy them a cup of coffee just to encourage them, and to let them know that I see the work they’re doing. Their work matters”?

Callie Picardo:
Prayer is a big thing too, to just be undergirding, all you do with prayer. Praying for your clients. Praying for your coworkers. Praying just whatever you do. I mean, if you’re a farmer, you’re out in God’s creation. I mean, even just meditating on the parables there, I mean, to be among the wheat and seeing the wheat and the chaff and think through those parables. I mean, if you look around you, you can see God wherever you are. I think about the prayer of Blackaby, who would say, asking God, “Well, God, where are you at work? And I want to join you in that work.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Speaking of the parables, in a lot of the parables, people were asked to sell everything they have and give it to the poor. Are all Christians called to sell everything they have? What does that mean?

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. Scripture can get twisted in a variety of ways. Within the church, we see some that take it to the extreme of the prosperity gospel, where, “Hey, if you give to God and really XYZ ministry that I run, God’s going to bless you with a Mercedes-Benz. You’re going to have more money than you know what to do with.” And that’s not what God says. Now, God might do that. God said, “More blessed it is to give than to receive,” but I think some of those blessings are intangible.

Callie Picardo:
But then others take it to the extreme of that poverty gospel, taking from some of the scriptures you mentioned, like the rich young ruler that Jesus says, “Go and sell everything you have and give it to the poor and then follow me.” And he couldn’t because of it and his heart. Then you see that some of the disciples like Peter, James, and John, they left their boats, they left their nets, they left it all behind to follow Jesus. And Jesus said, “Hey, you’re going to have more rewards than what you’ve left behind by following me.”

Callie Picardo:
And so, God does call some people to do that. If God calls you to do that, it is worth it to obey. God also calls other people into industries where they’re making a lot of money and not necessarily to increase their standard of living, but then it can increase their standard of giving. I mean, by using those gifts, making money, investing it and having it grow, that frees you up to have more that you can give away and more kingdom impact you can have through that generosity. I think God knows what’s going to have a hold on our heart.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Callie Picardo:
I mean, you think of the parable of the talents, and the one that had one buried it. I mean, you can have hardly anything and still hoard. And then, the one with two and five talents, they invested it and doubled it. And so, the one that had five and made it 10 was given that one talent of the one that did nothing with it. He was given even more. I think it’s a posture of the heart. What has God given you? You don’t worry about, “Hey, I don’t have as much money as so-and-so.” Well, what has God given you? What resources do you have? How can you use it for God?

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. One of the things that’s important to all of life, but it applies to making money and saving, giving, is why we do what we do. There can be selfish reasons to give, because I know from my own life, it can make me feel really good about me when I give. But God calls us to be a cheerful giver. What does it mean to be a cheerful giver? I guess, a followup question to that is, how can we determine the own why, in our hearts, of why we’re giving?

Rosario Picardo:
I love that passage, and we talk about this in church oftentimes because that word cheerful is actually translated to hilarious.

Heidi Wilcox:
Really?

Rosario Picardo:
That we are a hilarious giver. And so, it’s using, I think, the world’s wisdom versus God’s wisdom, the world’s economy versus God’s economy. It doesn’t make sense to be a cheerful giver because the world always operates with a scarcity mentality. But God always operates out of abundance. And so, of course, it doesn’t make sense to give because that’s less of what we have. But even the proof in research has been done, people that give and are generous are more often happier and live longer lives than those who don’t.

Heidi Wilcox:
Really?

Rosario Picardo:
So I think there’s something even in our makeup, where we live into our full creation and God’s intent when we live to give.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. For sure. How do we determine our own why? Like if we’re giving from an abundance mentality or a scarcity mentality.

Callie Picardo:
I think it’s something that goes back to checking your emotions. When you’re giving, how does that make you feel? And if there’s fear with it, acknowledging that. But then surrendering that to God and digging deeper into why are you feeling that? But then, when you take that step of faith, there often is some fear when you step outside of your comfort zone and do something that’s scary. But you feel like God’s calling you to do that.

Callie Picardo:
Then seeing what God does, because the more we take those little steps of faith and then see God do what God does, come in and show off and do His God thing and provide in ways that we didn’t even fathom and make things stretch when it doesn’t make sense, I mean, God does that type thing when we’re faithful and we trust God and we step out in faith and say, “Yes.” And then, that gives us more confidence and faith for the next thing God calls us to do.

Callie Picardo:
I love in the Old Testament where they seek out faithful and they set up an Ebenezer stone, which means thus far God has been faithful. In my life, I look back at the Ebenezer stones, the, “Okay, here’s the time God was faithful. Here’s another time. Here’s another time. Oh my goodness, God.” When I start thinking about all the times God has been faithful and all the many blessings God’s given me, that gets me in that abundance mindset of, “I can’t out-give God. I can’t provide for myself even more than God can. I mean, God loves me as his daughter.”

Callie Picardo:
And so, it gives me that faith to step out and say yes to God. Then I see God provide again. So there’s another Ebenezer stone to add to the mountain of all the good things that God has done throughout history and throughout my own life. It just gives me that excitement in getting to give and be a part of it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I’m thinking about our friends who may be listening, who do live paycheck to paycheck. They don’t have really anything in savings. They’re worried about making their mortgage payment because there’s literally not enough money to do that. They’re worried about where their kid’s next meal might come from, because in spite of their best efforts, there is just not enough. What can these individuals do? How does this work, if you’re in that situation?

Callie Picardo:
It’s a lot of the same principles, but it gets that trust piece bigger. So it’s still figuring out, okay, God, what have you given me? Where are you providing? Sometimes God’s going to provide through outside sources too. I know, especially if you’ve been used to taking care of yourself, sometimes it can be really hard to accept help from others, to accept help through a food bank, to accept help through a clothing bank, to accept resources from others.

Callie Picardo:
But often, that’s God wanting to provide and wanting to show himself faithful. I know that was one of the hard things for a lot of folks through COVID, is people who had ever had to truly depend on God and the generosity of others lost jobs. All of a sudden, they were driving their nice car up to the food pantry because they didn’t have an income and they were living. God’s going to provide in different ways. One of the most generous donors I’ve seen went from that place of living paycheck to paycheck, but then seeing God’s blessing again.

Callie Picardo:
But she never forgot that experience of trusting God in those times where it was paycheck to paycheck and seeing God move and seeing God provide through other people as well. And then that just gave her a heart to want to bless others and help others in the same situation. So I would say keep being faithful, but don’t be afraid to accept help from others too, because that’s what the body of Christ is for. But the world says you should be able to do it on your own.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yes.

Callie Picardo:
You should be able to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, which that image doesn’t even make sense.

Heidi Wilcox:
It doesn’t even work, [crosstalk 00:50:25].

Callie Picardo:
It doesn’t work. You have your boots, pull yourself up, what? In the air by your own self. Our God calls us to be dependent on God and also on others. And we are to be together as the body of Christ. And so, often that means letting others help.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Yeah. And it’s hard to accept help sometimes.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah. Oh my goodness. So hard.

Heidi Wilcox:
So hard.

Callie Picardo:
It takes so much humility.

Heidi Wilcox:
So much.

Callie Picardo:
Humility is a good thing and God got takes care of the humble too. I mean, we humble ourselves before God and that’s when God can start to move.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, Ros and Callie, we have talked about many things and we have one question that we ask everybody who comes on the show. But before we do, is there anything else you’d like to talk about that we haven’t already talked about?

Rosario Picardo:
Well, you can get the book at Market Square or Amazon. At Market Square, we’ll provide the 20% discount code.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Rosario Picardo:
There’s also, for anyone listening that’s a pastor or a lay leader at their church, if your church is one that would want to do a sermon series on these different topics of earning, saving, spending, and giving, we’ve created… The chapters of our book have been made into sermons that are going to be available through Outreach magazine as a free resource for churches involving the bumpers, the sermon graphics, all of that good stuff for those that want to build it in as part of their teaching and preaching this year.

Heidi Wilcox:
Awesome. And you guys do coaching too, right?

Callie Picardo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rosario Picardo:
Yep. I coach church planters and pastors and churches.

Callie Picardo:
I do more coaching on the fundraising side. That’s my heart and my passion. I love helping people fund the mission that God’s called them to do.

Heidi Wilcox:
Awesome. We’ll link to all of that in the show notes. In case people want to contact you, they’ll be able to go there and get it. The one question that we ask everybody, because the show is called Thrive With Asbury Seminary, what is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life right now?

Rosario Picardo:
I would say, for me, I started meeting with a spiritual director and that has been a game changer, because that helps me to stay centered. As an Enneagram three, it’s hard for me to want to sit still and want to do something like that because of always wanting to be productive. And so, being intentional about seeking somebody out and having those rhythms, it’s an outside voice that can encourage me to be still and to do the things that may be are counterintuitive in my nature in terms of discipline and rhythm with God.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Callie Picardo:
I would say, for me, just pausing intentionally throughout the day to check back in with God. I mentioned earlier, I do a lot of journaling. I have to write my prayers down because otherwise my mind wanders.

Heidi Wilcox:
I’m glad I’m not the only one.

Callie Picardo:
I start thinking about my to-do list and a conversation I need to have. And then, after a while, I’m like, “Oh, I’m not praying anymore. I’m just thinking about what I want to do.” And so, I journal and I write out my prayers because I’m less likely to go off topic. Or if I do need to write out my to-do list, I’ll say, “God, I surrender,” and I’ll list out the things that I’m surrendering to God that are often on my to-do list.

Callie Picardo:
But then I was trying to make that practice in the morning. I’m Enneagram one. So I’m the routine follower, the perfectionist. I was trying to say, “Well, I did it this morning. That should last throughout the day.” But I’d realize, I’d get to the mid points in the day where I was just like, “I don’t even know what I should be doing right now. I’ve got more work to do than I can get through. So God, what should I be doing right now?”

Callie Picardo:
Or I’m getting ready to go into a meeting and rather than preparing, with me just saying, “Okay, God, let me pray for this person I’m going to meet with.” And so, I’ve started journaling mid day sometimes too, and that just helps me recenter. I’ll just open a Word document on my computer or the notes on my phone and just start typing, to just recenter myself back on God and just, again, try to make… I work in fundraising for a Christian nonprofit, but to keep the sacred sacred by putting God first.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Yeah, to keep your focus on Jesus, even as you work in a Christian place, because as you mentioned, you can make the sacred secular and the secular sacred too.

Callie Picardo:
Very easily. It’s just a hard cluster. So just trying to check in with God throughout the day and not getting down on myself for the fact that I’ve strayed once again. God knows that we’re these crazy little sheep that just wander off and He says, “Okay, time to come back.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And He’s very kind. One thing I’m learning is to be kind to myself in the rhythms of my life.

Callie Picardo:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
So yeah.

Callie Picardo:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Well, thank you guys so much. We’ll link to all the things in the show notes. Thank you again for your generosity to our listeners, with the discount code. We’ll link that out as well. And just thanks so much for your time and the wisdom that you’ve given us.

Callie Picardo:
Oh, thanks so much for having us. It’s been a joy to be with you today.

Rosario Picardo:
Yes. Thank you so much.

Heidi Wilcox:
You’re welcome back anytime.

Callie Picardo:
Oh, thank you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Ros and Collie. They are just the best and I so enjoyed this conversation, and gained a new perspective on my identity in Christ, where my security is found and some takeaways about how I can spend money differently and give generously. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as well. If you liked what you heard, be sure to tell Ros and Callie, thanks so much for being on the show.

Heidi Wilcox:
If you haven’t already, be sure to grab a copy of their book, Money Talks. It’s available, wherever books are sold. But for our listeners, they have generously offered a 20% discount if you purchase the book from Market Square Books. We’ll link to that on the website. The code is 20MTalk. That’s 20MTalk for 20% off if you purchase the book from Market Square Books. Thanks again for joining us for today’s show. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

Heidi Wilcox:
As always, you can follow us in all the places on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Asbury Seminary. Until next time, I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.