Bud Simon and Dr. Jay Moon: Effective Intercultural Evangelism

Overview

Today Bud Simon, current Ph.D. student at Asbury Seminary and consultant with TMS Global, and Dr. Jay Moon, Professor of Church Planting and Evangelism at the Seminary, join the podcast. Bud and his family served for 20 years as church planters in Brazil and Dr. Moon spent 13 years in Ghana, Africa. In today’s conversation we talk about their recently released book Effective Intercultural Evangelism: Good News in a Diverse World. They talk us through four common worldviews, how to recognize and engage those who may think differently through conversation and friendship. They even developed an app to help us do that!! Jesus meets all needs, so we also talk about why it’s so important to present the Gospel message in a way that makes sense to our friends and our neighbors, right next door and around the world.

Thanks to their generosity, listeners of the show receive a 30% discount when you order their book Effective Intercultural Evangelism: Good News in a Diverse World at IVPress.com and use the code EVANG21.

Let’s listen!

*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.

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Transcript

Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone, welcome to this week’s edition of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary Podcast. I’m your host, Heidi E. Wilcox bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders, and people just like you who are looking to connect where your passion meets the world’s deep need.

Heidi Wilcox:
Today on the podcast, Bud Simon current PhD student at Asbury Seminary and Consultant with TMS Global, and Dr. Jay Moon, Professor of Church Planting and Evangelism at the seminary join the podcast.

Heidi Wilcox:
Bud and his family served for 20 years as church planters in Brazil, and Dr. Moon spent 13 years in Ghana, Africa. In today’s conversation we talk about their recently released book Effective Intercultural Evangelism, good news in a diverse world.

Heidi Wilcox:
They talk us through four common worldviews, help us learn how to recognize and engage those who may think differently than we do through conversation and friendship. Guys, they even developed an app to help us do that and we’ll link to that in the show notes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Jesus meets all needs. So, we also talk about why it’s important to present the gospel message in a way that makes sense to our friends and our neighbors right next door and around the world.

Heidi Wilcox:
And thanks to their generosity, listeners of the show receive a 30% discount when you order their book, Effective Intercultural Evangelism at ivpress.com and use the code Evang21. E-V-A-N-G-21. Let’s listen.

Heidi Wilcox:
Bud, Dr. Moon I am so delighted to have you on the Thrive With Asbury Seminary Podcast today. Thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Great to be here. Thanks for inviting us both.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, great to be here. Thank you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, I’m really excited to get to talk to you about your new book, Effective Intercultural Evangelism: Good News in a Diverse World. But before we get into all of that, would you each take a minute to introduce yourselves. So Dr. Moon if we could start with you.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Sure. I’m Professor of Church Planting and Evangelism at the best seminary in all of Wilmore, Kentucky, Asbury Theological Seminary. Love being here. Also, Director of the Office of Faith, Work, and Economics for the last eight years I’ve been here.

Dr. Jay Moon:
We’re missionaries, my wife and I and four kids largely in Ghana, West Africa for 13 years. And now it’s been a pleasure to be able to write along with Bud this piece of work. I’ve done a few other books in the past but this is a lot of fun to do with Bud.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, that’s great to have a coauthor.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, Bud what about you?

Bud Simon:
Yeah, it’s been quite a journey. My wife and I went to Brazil. We were there for 20 years and we were in the Amazon Jungle doing church planting. The Lord really blessed it a lot and there’s quite a few churches planted during our time there.

Bud Simon:
We felt like the Lord was saying it was time to move on from there and turn things over to the nationals. And so concurrent with that, the Lord lay on my heart to pursue a PhD. And we landed at the best seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky. So, we moved here about five or six years ago and I’ve been working on my PhD since then. I still do mission consulting, traveling to Latin America and Brazil and doing conferences and teaching.

Bud Simon:
And I had this great opportunity to write this book with my academic mentor, Jay Moon.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. So, I love that relationship piece there. How did this book come to be?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah great question. I think both of us had similar journeys where when we went to another context, I went to Ghana, West Africa, and started to share the gospel with people, we learned the language, trying to understand the culture, and then you share the gospel the way we’ve learned kind of like this adaptation for spiritual laws or something like that, and the people say, “Well that’s interesting, kind of.” But not really.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And then you realize they don’t feel guilt, internal guilt for their sin. So, the way that we’re taught in the West to share the gospel just doesn’t really make sense to them.

Dr. Jay Moon:
But when I describe the gospel in terms of there’s this curse put upon humanity and therefore people have this fear of evil, witchcraft, juju, etc., And that God promised that he would send a redeemer to be the power of God to break that curse, and that’s what Christ is, they’re like, “Tell me more.”

Dr. Jay Moon:
And not because of us, but often in spite of us, after nine years there are 25 churches now in this Builsa area. The reason this book came about is if we’re starting at the wrong cultural starting point, then we may miss people and assume that they’re not interested in the gospel as opposed to perhaps we’ve given the wrong starting point to get a conversation going.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
So what did you learn because you were both coming from the West, what mistakes did you make, what did you learn as you got started?

Bud Simon:
Right. So, my story is a little bit … it was almost very similar to Jay’s. Now I would just come in and preach like these beautiful three-point sermons and they were good. But everyone would kind of nod and oh that’s very good.

Bud Simon:
Well one day I shared this story about something that happened, a testimony that happened to me and about shame and how I had done something to embarrass someone and shame them. And unintentionally I did it just a very American way.

Bud Simon:
And then God spoke to me about the mistake, I went back to this person and I said, “Man, I was wrong.” And I kind of took out shame on myself and the stories I’m supposed to place honor. Just putting it in the worldview terms.

Bud Simon:
Well, when I shared that story in the church Sunday when I preached, everyone stood up and clapped. It was like …

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.

Bud Simon:
I was going to say the home run, I didn’t even know what. But the Lord …

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
Because we didn’t have this worldview context or that language for worldview, but the Lord just said, “Hey, people are coming from a very different starting place and when you dial that in, you’re joining what I’m trying to do in their lives.”

Bud Simon:
And we see this in the story of Adam and Eve, they were ashamed and embarrassed and they covered themselves up because of their sin and then God covers their sin. He makes clothes for them and covers their sin.

Bud Simon:
And so that has a lot to do with the honor/shame worldview and my own personal experience. But kind of dialing that in, man this really made a difference in our work in ministry there.

Heidi Wilcox:
Before we go too much further, I want to get a good definition of how you guys think about intercultural evangelism, how would you describe that?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right. That’s really good. So, a lot of people think of evangelism like they’re trying to close a deal or they got to make a sale.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. Like for me it’s like hell fire and brimstone.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
It doesn’t give me the feels.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right, right.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, we’re trying to dispel those notions and what we’re trying to say is that God has started a conversation with everybody even if those people don’t admit it.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
They may be agnostic, or atheist or indifferent or whatever. We recognize God has started a conversation, therefor we’re going to listen to that conversation, catch up on it and move that conversation towards Christ.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Now particularly when you’re dealing with people of a different cultural background. We’ve described intercultural evangelism as the process of putting Christ at the center of someone’s worldview in order to initiate them into Christian discipleship through culturally relevant starting points.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, in the book we talk about four different major worldview patterns and then identifying those as good starting points to enter into faith discussions.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Since you led us right there, if we could, let’s just talk about the four worldviews that you address in your book. We have guilt/justice, shame/honor, fear/power, indifference and belonging. So Bud why don’t you start us off talking about the guilt justice worldview?

Bud Simon:
Sure, yeah. Guilt/justice is what we would see as the predominant worldview for the West which would be United States, Western Europe, some of these countries like that. And really it’s predominant like where you see individualism, what we’d consider personal responsibility.

Bud Simon:
For example, a lot of times here in the States when there’s not an auto accident or something like that, it’s like, “Well who is responsible.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. That’s almost the first question, yeah.

Bud Simon:
That’s the first question now, we got to find out who’s responsible for this. That very much plays into that worldview. And so when we look at the gospel then, we see if you’ve grown up in the church you’ve probably heard this example of you’re a sinner and you have all this red in your ledger.

Bud Simon:
Christ died for your sins and it’s like you paid all your debt so now you’re even, you zeroed out your account, things like that. And so there’s a lot of romance talks about this aspect of the gospel, and so yeah, that’s a lot of it.

Bud Simon:
And then yeah I can go into quite a bit. But really there’s this thought of we have there’s one gospel for every single person and it makes sense in the same way. We don’t want to treat anyone differently, we want to treat everyone identically.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. Dr. Moon if you could talk about fear/power for just a minute.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yes. So the interesting thing is that a lot of the popular methods like Four Spiritual Laws and Roman Road and Measure of Explosion was predicated on the guilt/justice worldview. When people try those methods, they don’t work. And then they assume either maybe I’m just not good at this, there must be somebody really gifted at it as opposed to rethinking perhaps I’m starting at the wrong spot.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, the fear/power is very much what we identified in the Builsa area. They don’t feel internally guilty for their sin, but they have this fear of the spirit world that Christ then becomes the power of God for salvation.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Now we’re finding in the Western world it also has traction for people who are addicted to lots of different things.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
There are lots of addictions out there.

Bud Simon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, there are.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And it may not feel like this internal guilt or outward shame or indifference, but what they are really looking for is power.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
They want the power of God to overcome.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, that’s the starting point for their conversation.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, I think the example you used in the book was, I hide in my chicken.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, right, right.

Heidi Wilcox:
Would you want to explain that because I don’t think anybody else is going to know what I just meant.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah. So, now you’re talking about chicken theology where in the Builsa area there is a proverb about (Bulsia proverb) which means we hide under the feathers of a chicken.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And for a Builsa person if they’re hiding under those feathers, then whatever problems come along, that chicken will die for me instead of me.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And then what they’re saying is that whenever there’s fear, I can hide under Jesus’ feathers and he’ll take the heat for me and therefore I won’t have to rest on my own fear uncovered, unprotected, in a nutshell.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. But if we could talk about shame/honor.

Bud Simon:
So, here is something interesting, I’ll talk about this aspect of it. When we came back from Brazil, I had seen a lot of the shame/honor culture there and how people really related to that being invited into a family when they didn’t have maybe family to belong to.

Bud Simon:
And when I got back here, this town is full of millennials and even younger people than millennials, people are calling them Gen Z and Gen I, all kinds of things.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah.

Bud Simon:
And so I thought, “Man, it’s like they’re more like people in Brazil than people in America.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Interesting.

Bud Simon:
So, I started to do some research into this and it talks about this a little bit in the book too is what has happened is in a past generation you would say, “Hey, you shouldn’t do that, that’s wrong or that’s sinful,” and people would respond to that. They’d go, “Yeah, you’re right. That’s not a good thing to do.”

Bud Simon:
But now people are like, “So what?” But then you change the conversation a little bit and you say, “Don’t do that or I’ll tell your friends. Don’t do that or I’ll put it on social media that you’re doing that.” They’re like, “No, don’t do that. I’ll stop.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Bud Simon:
And so that brings in this element of there’s this audience that sees what’s going on and there’s this embarrassment, there is this shame before this audience. And so Christ, that’s part of the honor/shame is to say, hey Christ is dead. I’m going to cover this, and so you don’t need to be embarrassed anymore about your sins. You can come back into the community.

Bud Simon:
And the story that really talks about this in the scripture is the story of the prodigal son.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Bud Simon:
Here is this guy, he goes out and he just does most embarrassing thing for himself and his family, very shameful. He’s out there feeding the pigs and it’s just very humiliating for him and he comes back and the father basically … Symbolically he’s covering everything with a robe.

Bud Simon:
And in the community he’s saying, “Let’s invite everyone and celebrate your return.” There’s no dwelling on his mistakes or anything like that. And so it’s like this beautiful image of we’re just going to cover your shame and restore you to your place of honor.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, very beautiful image of Christ.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, definitely. Dr. Moon, indifference and belonging.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yes. This is an area that we’ve been exploring for five years that we’ve done research in and we’re documenting that what happens is due to secularization whether it’s in schools or whatever, the end point of secularization is not atheism but it’s indifference so that people don’t feel anymore guilt for sin internally or out of shame or fear, but they’re basically indifferent to the gospel. Kind of like I’ve been there, done that, they’re just not really feeling it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, what’s happening is Jesus’ responds to that worldview very uniquely and the analog is with Zacchaeus.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, here’s Zacchaeus, he’s a chief tax collector. So, he’s not trusted by the Jews at all and he’s not really in with the Romans totally. He’s kind of in the middle but he’s just really indifferent to the religious system of his day.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And when Jesus comes to visit his house, he doesn’t talk about guilt or fear or shame, but Jesus brings the disciples with him so that Zacchaeus feels as he belongs.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And when he belongs in this community, then he’s given new purpose for his life. And when he stands up and says that he’ll defraud those that he has taken advantage of, that’s when Jesus says, “Salvation has come to this house.”

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, we feel that there’s a growing, particularly say university campuses, Gen Z, millennials, that increasingly what is really attractive to them of the gospel and a good starting point for understanding what Christ means to them, is that they can belong and have a purpose. So, belonging with purpose is a result of that.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, I think about these questions about belonging and purpose all the time really.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, cool.

Heidi Wilcox:
So, how can we … Because everybody we meet … Because I’m gathering when we talk about, and I can be wrong, so feel free to correct me.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
But when you talk about intercultural evangelism, it doesn’t just mean that I went to Africa.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
It could mean that my neighbor who might have the same skin color as me but might not, but who thinks about life differently than me, is that …?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Very much so.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, okay.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, for sure.

Heidi Wilcox:
So, how can we learn to start thinking and asking questions in such a way so that we can figure out which worldview is our primary one because we don’t have little pieces of different ones.

Heidi Wilcox:
And then how to engage other people in the worldview that they come from.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Good. Well one final way that we’ve tried to help people do this is we developed a card game that helps people to identify.

Heidi Wilcox:
I love that.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah it’s fun and I tell people just don’t put money on the table. So we developed the card game to help people recognize and identify these four different worldviews, and then recognize how they respond appropriately to these worldviews.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And one person likened it to batting practice at baseball. So, you don’t go out and the first time you hit the ball is when you’re starting in front of this guy who’s going to throw a fast ball at you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
You have some practice like you swing the bat around.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, what we say is we do this card game, and we teach that at Asbury and we have cohorts that go through it for the last six years.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And it’s like batting practice because the more they practice with a card and it’s fun and enjoyable, then the more competence they have and the more confidence they gain so that when they’re face-to-face with a relative or a neighbor, they start to identify which worldview the person’s engaging in and know where to start a faith conversation.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, okay, yeah. Go ahead.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, I was just going to jump in too. Practically some people may read this book and they’ll think, “Well I got this neighbor and I feel like I should share something with them.”

Bud Simon:
And I think really one of the things that emphasizes in the book is you’re trying to join a conversation, not trying to start it from zero. And so you’re going in there and you’re listening to their story and you’re doing this double listening. What’s going on in their story but how is God at work in their life? Okay? Because God like we said earlier, God’s always at work in everyone’s life trying to draw them to himself.

Bud Simon:
And so we don’t have to feel like I got to jumpstart this from zero. We just have to feel like hey I just need to join in the conversation that’s already going on, and so that’s going to take a little bit more quietness on my part, a little more listening, and a little more patience than we have typically exemplified in our evangelism model in the past.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. What I hear you saying is it’s building that relationship.

Bud Simon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Way before you start really thinking about, you’re thinking about it maybe, but before you start saying the words to invite to church to talk about addiction, any of that.

Bud Simon:
Right, yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah very much so. And you’re exactly right. This book was written for practitioners, for people in the practice, not simply missionaries going far away. But anybody engaged in this world, say we’re in the US context, most likely you’re going to meet somebody from a different worldview.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah for sure.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And therefore what we’re trying to do is help people understand which worldview people inhabit in order to know where to start those conversations. And we say that you’re not trying to destroy somebody’s faith system, so you don’t have to destroy say Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism, but understand the worldview upon which those religious systems are built. And you get to the worldview level, then you start to engage biblically with the worldview that created some change to move them towards Christ.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, and I’ll just jump in there too, a lot of times in the past evangelism was kind of portrayed as this adversarial relationship.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, it’s very much that.

Bud Simon:
We are against other people. And instead now we’re saying, no we’re for people and we are for what God is doing in their life. We’re trying to actually work with them and take away that aspect of man, we have to show them we are right, that they are wrong, because most people somewhere in their heart they realize we don’t need to tell them they’re wrong. They already have that. The Holy Spirit is already at work even if they aren’t Christians.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
And like Jay said, even if they’re atheist, we believe there is this little notch somewhere in their heart where the Holy Spirit is at work.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. In your book you talk about this beautiful story from India about offering people water and the man was dying of thirst and wouldn’t take the water because it was from a cup from a man that wasn’t part of his caste system.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
And then he received the water, somebody got the water in a cup that was acceptable to him. And so you reason that as a description of why contextualization is so important. That’s a basic example of why is contextualization so important in how we share the gospel?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, what we’re saying is that these people have different worldviews and once you start to recognize those, then you’re starting to scratch the itch. In other words, you’re starting to address where God is already at work.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, it does require that double listening that Bud was talking about. And oddly enough, it sounds like you’re becoming a good friend, right, and listening.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, as you’re becoming a friend, then friends help each other, friends guide each other, friends mentor each other and kind of bring them along. And we think that’s probably a better metaphor than a used car salesman.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah for sure.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, as you get used to identifying these patterns then you have useful starting points and it comes across as a friend helping another friend as opposed to a used cars salesman saying don’t look under the hood but just buy that.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right, right. How do we learn to recognize if it’s a power issue, guilt issue, fear issue, indifferent issue?

Bud Simon:
So, I would just say slowing down a little bit, like we’ve mentioned before in the book we talk a lot about we’re trying to shift the paradigm a little bit into this instead of feeling like when I talk to this person if they don’t commit to Christ, then I have failed in evangelism.

Bud Simon:
And so we’re trying to shift that paradigm to where we think how have I moved this person towards Christ. And so it just really involves a lot of listening and more conversation and some discernment as you talk to people.

Bud Simon:
We mention in the book there the story where I think, is it the Wicker story where you’re like hey, this isn’t really a power/fear issue, which you would think of as someone who is practicing wicca, but they’re really, what was it, indifferent you said, that they-

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, so what we try to do in the book to help out here is each of these four worldviews we give you questions to work through.

Bud Simon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
I love that, yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, like for the honor/shame type of thing, we say perhaps instead of starting with a presentation why don’t you invite them to your house and express hospitality or even visit their house so that you give honor to them and that starts off a conversation where honor is restored.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And it’s really kind of getting underneath of where people are in order to find out where to start with that. So, each of the worldviews we’ve given people steps at the end to think through.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
I think these kind of questions and even work through it in your own mind as you’re talking to different people.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, I love that.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, that’s great.

Heidi Wilcox:
What would you say is the first step if we want to take the first step of evangelism for the people that come across our path?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, my recommendation you read this book here and I’m advocating the card game in the sense that it gives you a little bit of practice.

Bud Simon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, how do people get the card game?

Dr. Jay Moon:
They can either contact me or the digitalbiblecollege.com.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. We’ll link all that in the show notes.

Dr. Jay Moon:
We link that there.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, we’ll link it.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And while we’re talking about those things, we do have a discount code for this book, 30% off.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, there is. I’ll give the code. Go ahead and give it right now. It is Evang21, E-V-A-N-G-21. And that works if you order the book from ivpress.com for 30% off.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
And so we’ll have all that linked in the show notes too.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Excellent. So, as you start to talk to people and engage in conversation, each of the chapters talk about different things to look for.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And how to start creating that conversation that gets traction with their world and then start thinking about areas in your own life where God has shown God self to you. Maybe it’s been like in an honor/shame area or maybe it’s been a guilt/justice area so that when you then know how to respond to them biblically, like what biblical story kind of addresses that, think about your own story in there.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, we advocate this three-story approach where you listen really well to that person’s story to know where that place is to engage and then you’re able to engage your own story in a relevant area which is usually what friends do for each other.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And then third you say, “Well also I know somebody else who is engaged in this,” and there’s a biblical story that you can offer. So, those three stories come together in order to help move people further along in Christ.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. I love that. So, one question that I’ve been really thinking about is if this is so important as Christians to tell other people about Jesus, and I believe that it is, why aren’t we all doing it?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Because if hell is a real place, then why aren’t we doing everything we can to tell people about Jesus?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think obviously one of the things that happened is in the great awakening, in the 1800s and 1900s when there is this idea of we want to get as many people saved as quickly as possible and most efficiently as possible.

Bud Simon:
And so everything got refined down into a system or a message. Well as I think Jay mentioned earlier, suddenly that really wasn’t resonating with people as worldviews shifted and the way people were that we met around us were just different.

Bud Simon:
And so suddenly everyone thought, oh, something different to us. Maybe the gospel is not relevant, maybe I’m just not good at evangelism, I’m tired of people getting upset at me when I’m trying to explain the gospel to them.

Bud Simon:
No one wants to do anything that frustrates both them and the person they’re trying to reach, right?

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, definitely.

Bud Simon:
And so it’s like, man, and it’s really easy to dislike evangelism. Well what we’re really advocating here is that there’s a system, there’s a way to share the gospel that speaks to people’s heart. And instead of feeling like I need to get them to make this decision, we’re saying we’re trying to point them towards Christ.

Bud Simon:
George Hunter has done research in this area and he mentions sometimes it takes up to 30 different people, we consider 30 different touches where and tell people to come to Christ.

Bud Simon:
And people have done research in different areas but it just shows that we are one person helping that person get to Christ.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that everybody is a bad example of evangelism and they are told almost that this is the one silver bullet, this is how you do it and try it and it falls flat.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, they assume okay maybe I’m not that guy, I’m never good enough for that. I’m not a Billy Graham type of thing.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Bud Simon:
Right, right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So maybe somebody else. And the other side of it is they’ve seen what they do not want to be. You see somebody yelling on the corner, whatever, you say, “I don’t want to be that.” So, between those two, I can never be this and I do not want to be that, they pretty much wash their hands off and say, “You know what, that’s for other people.”

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
I think another factor happening particularly in our culture is people get distracted really easy. And we almost amuse ourselves to death.

Heidi Wilcox:
We do.

Dr. Jay Moon:
They have so many other things going on. And when you talk about evangelism, it kind of gets on the back burner. And even some of the Barna Research it was showing that millennials in particular aren’t so sure if evangelism should be done.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And I think it’s because of those bad examples or I’m never good enough for this as well as they’re already distracted with lots of other stuff to do.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And they don’t see the connection of it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. No, that makes sense because I’m not sure I’m quite in the millennial generation.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
But I guess I kind of asked this question before, but I have read your book and I would definitely recommend it. But I think I’m telling the truth when I say I don’t think I ever told anybody about Jesus, not because I don’t care, but because I don’t know exactly how to go about doing it.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
So, I’m curious, how can somebody like me take the first step to do this?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Very good. I would say that you’re young and it’s most likely, according to our research, the high percentage of millennials are indifferent. And therefore let’s assume that, and as you’re listening to people it may be wrong, maybe there is some addiction, there’s a fuel power, maybe there’s some shame issues.

Dr. Jay Moon:
But let’s say you’re starting off and starting to listen through okay, 50% or so are going to be indifferent. Well when I start to share with them, I’ll probably share more about how my relation with Christ has made me be part of a larger community where I feel accepted and I feel like I’ve come home.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Maybe even come home to a family I never had but wanted or maybe come home to a family I had and lost. And as you’re sharing that, you start to share also that I know have a greater purpose in my life and maybe even invite them in to a habitat, humanity build or a neighborhood cleaning or whatever.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And so what you’re doing is you’re recognizing that these are longings that are deep in their soul and you’re explaining in your life how God has met that and satisfying that and inviting them into it.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Now as you’re listening to their conversation though, they may take you a different direction and that often happens. So, as a result of being aware of these four different worldviews you’re knowing which way to go based upon how they converse with you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, and I would say this too. One of the examples we use in the book too is that the worldviews is like a sound board. So, everybody has at least a little bit of one of these worldviews in your own life.

Bud Simon:
And so if you think back and reflect back on your own experience, you may not be predominantly in that one worldview. But you can probably think of an example and where somehow how Christ worked in that in the area of your life.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. You make it, I think, sound so easy in a way because you’ve boiled it down to just being friends with people.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Doing what friends do, being a good listener but having meaningful conversations as friends do.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right. So, it’s always intentional. There’s intentionality in it and that there is always spiritual activity happening around people.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And this was actually a work of the spirit, we’re trying to cooperate with that.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, there’s no formulas in the book and there’s no step one, two, three, follow this and everything works out great. No cookbook kind of thing. But it’s giving you kind of pointers of what to look for as the wind of the spirit is blowing the sail of the boat to make it move. What are some of those indicators that we look for in order to determine where people are receptive and where to guide that faith conversation.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, and we come back again and again to these different biblical examples and we think of the work of Christ on the cross for us kind of as this gemstone, as this diamond. So, when you hold it up to the light, when you look at it from different angles you’re seeing different lights reflected, different colors reflected through it.

Bud Simon:
It’s not just only one thing. And so that’s a lot like what the gospel is. It helps us have this more robust view of the work of Christ.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. One of the things you’ve also talked about is meeting the needs of people, like establishing laws in Africa, working for social justice initiatives and things like that.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
How did these types of initiatives, ministries, whatever words you want to call it, how do they demonstrate the truth of the gospel in deed, word, and lifestyle?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Great, great, I like the way you put that. So, we call this holistic evangelism. And when you really think about the holistic gospel, it embodies all that. So, one thing we mentioned in the book that Jesus never shared the gospel the same way twice.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Which is really interesting, right? So, he never had a formula even though we try to codify it and make a formula out of it, he never had a formula there. But you see him demonstrating the kingdom through his words as well as the deeds that he did and the lifestyle he lived.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And when those three are congruent, when your words and your deeds and your lifestyle are all pointed to Christ, it’s a very powerful witness of Christ, it’s very hard for people to shake.

Dr. Jay Moon:
They may not agree and they may contend, but they have a hard time dismissing it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, we’re calling it the holistic evangelism and it’s a way to be able to not just say the gospel but portray it. And one friend of ours, Mark DeYmaz who is a leader at Mosaix Multicultural Church Planting, he said, “In the previous generation they’re all about proclamation, like proclaiming the gospel.” Like the Billy Graham era et cetera.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Jay Moon:
He says, “For the younger generation like Gen Z and millennial et cetera, he says it’s really about demonstration.” They want to see it demonstrated in front of them. If this gospel is really true then demonstrate it so we can see it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
For sure.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, and I just want to throw in this one little disclaimer because sometimes it sounds almost as if we’re talking poorly about some of these tools like the four spiritual laws or mentioning Billy Graham.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Bud Simon:
It’s not that at all. It’s like they were tremendously effective and powerful in a certain time and place but the United States in the 21st century is in a different time and place and the church needs to recognize that and embrace that as an opportunity.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, I’m glad you said that because it’s definitely not criticizing the things that have been done.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
Just trying to move it forward. You both have global backgrounds. How do you see God at work both in our American culture and globally?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, it’s a great question and accurate.

Heidi Wilcox:
It’s a big question.

Dr. Jay Moon:
It is a big one.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And it’s really fun to answer because in a nutshell we’re living in unprecedented times where unprecedented numbers of people are coming to Christ-

Heidi Wilcox:
Really?

Dr. Jay Moon:
… in ways that we have never seen before. Even Muslims, Hindus and these church planting movements. For example, in the last 70 years or so Sub Saharan Africa has gone from 24% Christian to about 48%. That’s huge.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And this little peninsula called South Korea, if you take all of the Presbyterians in the United States and multiply by two, South Korea has more Presbyterians. That’s a huge growth.

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And this is happening worldwide. And when I tell this to people they often don’t believe it because they’re living in, say, the US and they say, “Well I don’t see it happening around me.”

Dr. Jay Moon:
But there is this global work of God and for some reason God’s allowed us to be a part of this time. So, what we’re trying to identify in the book is perhaps the areas where the gospel is exploding and churches are moving, perhaps they have something to teach us and how do we learn from that well so that we can apply it in our own pluralistic society where it’s more likely you’re going to engage people with different faith backgrounds than ever before.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, definitely. But what are some things that we can take away from other cultures and apply them to … Or anybody listening is not from America, I realize that.

Bud Simon:
Sure.

Heidi Wilcox:
But apply to the Western culture?

Bud Simon:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say this, some of the cultures they readily embrace those cultural values and for example collectivism, being inclusive and so here in the United States for example, one out of eight people is an immigrant.

Bud Simon:
Well they relate to that. They relate to you saying, “Hey, let’s hang out, tell me about your family, what’s going on?” And not being in a hurry and not being rushed. People relate to it.

Bud Simon:
Even, I’m going to just back up a little bit. Seven out of eight Americans have asked for prayer or prayed for healing for someone. That stat is in the book. People relate to power and fear, fear of sickness and injury, and so people respond when you say they’re telling you and pouring out their heart and you say, “Do you mind if I just pray?”

Bud Simon:
And instead of making it something really we have to pray in the name of Jesus Christ or something, just say, “I’m just going to pray a simple prayer, a blessing from God and God the creator.” We don’t have to put it in this churchy language. A lot of times it just turns people off, they don’t even understand what we’re talking about.

Bud Simon:
So, some of those things that are really common in other parts of the world, I think people here are ready to embrace but there’s a certain fear on our part because we feel like we have to do it in a certain formulaic approach or it’s invalid.

Bud Simon:
And I think we just need to lay that aside and realize, if I can just get this person even just a couple inches closer to Christ, I’ve done something right.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
To be honest, we would have never written this book if we hadn’t engaged other cultures deeply.

Bud Simon:
Right, yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
That’s kind of the genesis of it and it’s really saying that in the Western world we have a lot to learn than the global church.

Bud Simon:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes we do.

Dr. Jay Moon:
If we’re willing to listen. And we tried to describe the shame/honor worldview that’s largely coming out of collective societies and your power worldview that’s coming out of say folk kind of cultures and even our friendships in Europe are teaching us more about indifference.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Because unfortunately, they’re further ahead of the secularization process than we are in the US. So, we’ve got a lot to learn about how they’re dealing with that and engaging.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And we’re trying to explain that in the book and say these are lessons from the global church that could help us if we’re willing to listen to it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, you touched on it a little bit earlier in the conversation, Dr. Moon, but how do we reach the millennials, the indifferent generation? You talked about this research in your book that I found especially fascinating from David Kinnaman and talking about the questions and issues that this generation is thinking about.

Heidi Wilcox:
I think about these things all the time like searching for identity, anxiety, loneliness. Figuring out what your purpose is in life, it’s not just about having a job, it has to have meaning.

Heidi Wilcox:
And what matters beyond what I do. Are people going to miss me when I’m 100 and dying?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, right, yeah.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, when we talked with David Kinnaman and we started to collaborate that with the other research we’ve done and others have done, we started to realize perhaps it’s easily described as this belonging with purpose.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, if you look at those areas that Kinnaman is talking about and others, it really can be boiled down to there’s this deep longing to belong, to feel like people know my name and I’m part of this family and I feel like there’s a place that people know me.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Because one of the paradoxes of the millennial generation in particular is this great value of privacy.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And the bummer with that is that privacy and community are like a seesaw. The more you have of one, the less you have with the other.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Jay Moon:
If you have a high privacy, you have a little community. If you have high community, you have little privacy. So, what happens is you get such a high value for privacy that what it does, it drives people to have a high yearning for community because they’re lacking it, which is really interesting.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, that’s why we’re saying that this is what Christ offers to those millennials. They have this thirst and this hunger for community and Christ offers that community with this body of believers.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And on top of that, like Zacchaeus we talked about, there’s also this yearning for having significance to have a purpose to life.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Jay Moon:
We’re not just kind of running around the sign for a few times. So, offering the fact that Christ gives us this purpose that we are agents of the kingdom of God as a part of his church as new beginners, as like we’re sign agents for a taste of the kingdom of God for the sake of the world and we get to participate in that, the greatest purpose that we know, right?

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, giving people that opportunity to participate in that. Like I said earlier, I know several folks that came to Christ not through a direct presentation of the gospel but they went on a neighborhood clean up type of thing, or they went on a trip with a certain group and they realized, “You know what, these Christians aren’t like the ones I see on TV or the way that they’re stereotyped and they have something that I need,” and that kind of brought them in their faith journey.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, I think particularly for a younger generation, the belonging with purpose is an easy way to kind of summarize the yearnings and also the place where the gospel is a great relevant starting point.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I think about that you kind of I want to say debunked in your book is that our career doesn’t equal our calling. So, if our career … Because I have thought my career equaled my calling.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
If our career doesn’t equal our calling, how do we find our purpose?

Dr. Jay Moon:
I was going to say there’s that dual calling. That your first calling is to love and serve God.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And then your secondary callings are to fulfill that primary goal. And what that means is there’s lots of ways, either different stages of life or even at the same time with life, you can fulfill that primary calling through these different vocations that you’re doing.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And as vocation comes from that word vocare, which is Latin for calling. So, this resonates with the discussion about covocational ministry and covocational living. So, as you know I’m a professor at Asbury Seminary, but I’m also a teaching pastor of a church plant and I also have a small business, like Airbnb that I do.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And it may sound schizophrenic but what it really is, my main primary calling is to love and serve God and all of those individual secondary callings are all geared towards that.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, instead of being schizophrenic it’s just you wear different hats at different times. And I’m not placing my identity in those hats, my identity is in that primary calling and how do those secondary ones move towards that primary calling.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah. Bud I think you’re pretty similar in being covocational.

Bud Simon:
Yeah. I’m involved in quite a few things and the thing is, sometimes you get trapped thinking, “Man can I find that exact right job?” And instead of thinking that, thinking, “How can I serve God’s purposes where I am?” And that really helps us kind of resonate a little bit more.

Bud Simon:
The covocational like you said, instead of thinking I must do this one thing, thinking I can serve God in a variety of ways and wherever I am and in fact especially for Christians being in the marketplace puts us in relationship with the people that we most want to reach.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah. So, I think there was a fallacy in the past where people thought the only way to really have a sacred calling was to either be a pastor or missionary. Those were the two options, and the others are kind of lesser than.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And what we’re trying to say is no, perhaps God gives you these different secondary callings at different stages of life in order to have a sacred calling inside of that, not in spite of it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, I do some engineering work for people, and when they first meet me as an engineer, they judge me based on how well I’m helping them, how much value I create.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
It’s later in the conversation that they find out that I’m a professor or a pastor, or teacher, pastor, et cetera. And if that was our first introduction to me, it would have guided the conversation and stilted it in a different way.

Dr. Jay Moon:
But since they counted me as an engineer first, I created some social capital and usually, I’m not kidding you, almost every week it ends up with some kind of faith discussions, sometimes it’s prayer. I had people at the Airbnb, she started talking to me and I said, “Well would you like me to pray for you?” And she said, “Wow, I’ve been looking for spiritual guidance. Would you pray with me? I’d love that.”

Dr. Jay Moon:
And then at the end she said, “Can we keep in touch.” So my wife keeps in touch with her by email.

Heidi Wilcox:
That’s awesome.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And this is right in the midst of simply an Airbnb encounter.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So what I’m trying to emphasize is instead of dichotomizing these sacred jobs and these secular jobs, what if all of this is assumed under this primary calling to love and serve God, and each of those individual jobs whether you’re a lawyer, or a doctor, or missionary, whatever, are secondary to fulfill that primary calling.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right, and kind of come out of your gifting too, right?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Because when I hear you saying, it kind of takes the pressure off of I’m looking for a job or I’m in the job that I’m in and am I in the right job.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, right.

Heidi Wilcox:
And am I going to miss whatever. But it’s just loving and serving listening to other people.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And whatever job you have.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, I love that. We have talked about many things and we have one question that we ask everybody before we wrap up the show. But before we do, is there anything else you want to talk about that we haven’t talked about already?

Dr. Jay Moon:
One thing I like to make available to all the listeners is that every semester we have our free to students, a training seminar that’s one hour a week that helps people think through these things like pluralism, like we’re talking about, and secularism and individualism, relativism, all these types of things.

Dr. Jay Moon:
This is free and it’s offered, we’ve done this the last six years or so.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, I’d like to invite your listeners to participate in that. We’ve now developed a phone app that people can access that and do the training and then they just develop some more competency and some confidence.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And we found in our research, we’ve been doing this for six years, that people’s confidence increases 100% and their competence, their abilities increase 300%.

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, so we’ve been encouraged to continue doing this and Knox Fellowship is an organization that has partnered with Asbury Seminary to develop this. And this is offered free of charge and it’s available for listeners.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. And the cohort is just for students, is that correct?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Well it has been but on the phone app-

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, it might not be now.

Dr. Jay Moon:
… they can take it even if they’re not a student.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, they have access to it.

Heidi Wilcox:
What is the name of the phone app so people can find it and download it?

Dr. Jay Moon:
So Gnowbe, G-N-O-W-B-E is the organization or the platform upon which this practical evangelism for 21st century is the name of the course inside of Gnowbe.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, if you download the Gnowbe app on your phone, then you go in there and you’ll find this course.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. So, students can take the cohort on campus.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right, yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
Other listeners just need to download the Gnowbe app and do it on their own.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right, and then look for that course Practical Evangelism for 21st Century.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, awesome, awesome. Well we’ll link that all too. Do you have anything to add Bud before I ask our last question?

Bud Simon:
Wow. It’s just been great just to be here. It’s just great to be able to share about this book.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
One of the things I was just thinking is just fun to talk about things that excite your soul.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
So, it’s just been great to be here.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, it’s been such a delight to have you both here.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Well thanks for all your energy too and happiness.

Bud Simon:
I know.

Dr. Jay Moon:
It’s great to see that you’ve read the book and you’re thinking it through and that it connects. We’ve had lots of positive feedback with people.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
That have … They say something like what you said earlier. I’ve never really shared my faith with anybody and we’re saying, let’s think back on areas where you’ve seen God at work in somebody and you’re just kind of nudging them in a direction that they see God at work in that.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Or maybe think through the next time somebody talks about one of these different worldviews, where could I share some of my story or maybe part of God’s story in that and it just makes you a little bit more prepared to be able to engage with people.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. I found that really helpful because to me it’s always been do you want to come to church with me on Sunday.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right, right.

Heidi Wilcox:
It’s a super hard question. I feel like it’s a hard question.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right, right.

Heidi Wilcox:
When can you just drop that in when you’re having coffee?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
But just sharing life experiences and being intentional about pointing those experiences to reflect your own experience with God.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Right, because as relationships thicken, at some point along the way there’ll be a greater acts of that, right.

Heidi Wilcox:
It can come to that question.

Dr. Jay Moon:
But we don’t judge whether we have participated in God’s journey by have I asked someone to receive Christ as their …

Heidi Wilcox:
Right, right, right. Yeah, I found that super helpful. So, the one question that we ask everybody because the show is called the Thrive With Asbury Seminary Podcast, what is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life now?

Bud Simon:
That’s great.

Heidi Wilcox:
We can start with you Bud if you want.

Bud Simon:
Well, so kind of related to our topic or just anything?

Heidi Wilcox:
Anything. You can envision Netflix right now. If that is helping you thrive in your life, hiking, riding bikes, anything, whatever is …

Bud Simon:
I love hiking. But I would say one thing, one practice that really happened over the last year is I do regular riding and journaling. And so I’ve kind of … That’s something I’ve started. I tried that many times in my past. Didn’t have a lot of success with it, and so I finally found some good cues for that, and that’s really been helpful.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, it’s been great.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, I’m a journaler so I love that.

Bud Simon:
Good for you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Dr. Moon, what about you?

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, I love to get out in trees. So, to explain that a little bit.

Heidi Wilcox:
Like up in them or?

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, we built some tree houses, literally tree houses which you can find online. If you ask me I’ll give you the URL.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Bud actually was a partner of me in this and these tree houses have hot water, shower, toilet, kitchen, all that kind of stuff. But what happens is, what I find is you get out amidst all these trees …

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And this has been some research in some Nordic countries they found that after about eight to 10 minutes this part of the brain that produces anxiety starts to cool down.

Bud Simon:
Right.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And after about 50 minutes the part of the brain that produces creativity or new thinking starts to light up. So, what I’ve tried to do, and some of the writing in this book was there too, I’d go away to get among the trees, either a tree house or walk in the woods somewhere and I’ll find that happens to me.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Where the anxiety goes down and the creativity opens up, and just kind of life giving.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, I’ve encouraged listeners to find something life giving, make sure it’s legal. And it’s always legal to go into the forest. But find something life giving. For me it’s going to the forest and just getting in the canopy and there’s something that happens where I start to feel I come back with life.

Dr. Jay Moon:
And the interesting thing about it, while it may sound kind of selfish that I’m going out to the trees just to take care of Jay, right? Really it’s the most unselfish thing because if I don’t have any life in me, I have nothing to give other people.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Whether it’s students in the school or it’s people in the church or clients that I’m working with, if I have life to give, then I’ve got to give them.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
So, I think it’s really one of the most unselfish things to find something whether it’s, they call them forest bathing, or whatever it is, find that and then utilize that because it’s God’s way of giving life to you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah, yeah, I resonate with both of those things. So, thank you guys so much for sharing in this podcast.

Bud Simon:
Yeah, thank you.

Dr. Jay Moon:
Yeah, pleasure.

Heidi Wilcox:
It’s been a blast.

Bud Simon:
Yeah.

Dr. Jay Moon:
It has been.

Bud Simon:
We’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Bud and Dr. Moon. I hope you found this conversation helpful as we talked about ways to effectively engage others in conversations about Jesus in ways that make sense.

Heidi Wilcox:
If you haven’t already, be sure to pick up a copy of their book, Effective Intercultural Evangelism and listeners on the show receive a 30% discount when you order from ivpress.com and use the code Evang21, that’s E-V-A-N-G-21.

Heidi Wilcox:
Well that’s it from me today. As always you can follow us in all the places on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at @AsburySeminary. Until next time, I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.