Dr. Matthew Sleeth: Hope Always

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Overview

Today on the podcast, I got to talk to Dr. Matthew Sleeth. Dr. Sleeth is a former ER physician and chief of the hospital medical staff. He resigned from that position to teach, preach and write about faith and stewardship issues. Dr. Sleeth is a widely sought after speaker and was recognized by “Newsweek” as one of the nation’s most influential Christian leaders. Dr. Sleeth is the executive director of Blessed Earth and author of numerous articles and books. He and his wife, Nancy, live nearby in Lexington, Ky.

In today’s conversation, Dr. Sleeth and I talk about his new book “Hope Always” that releases on May 4. So we’ll link it in the show notes, but go ahead and grab a copy of that, so you’ll have it on release day. In this book, Dr. Sleeth shares from the position of a physician and minister. He shares his personal and professional experiences with depression and suicide, challenging Christians to become part of the solution. With sound medical principles finding their rightful place beside timeless biblical wisdom, “Hope Always” offers practical and spiritual tools for individuals, families and churches to help loved ones who are stressed and struggling.

If you or someone you know is struggling with depression and suicide this conversation offers practical resources and hope. One resource that I want to be sure to mention is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. That number is 800-273-8255 (TALK). It provides free and confidential, 24/7 support for people in distress and offers resources for you, your loved ones and best practices for professionals.

Let’s listen!

*The views expressed in this podcast don’t necessarily reflect the views of Asbury Seminary.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth, Executive Director and Co-Founder of Blessed Earth

Matthew Sleeth, MD, a former emergency room physician and chief of the hospital medical staff, resigned from his position to teach, preach, and write about faith and stewardship issues. Dr. Sleeth has spoken at more than one thousand churches, campuses, and events, including serving as a monthly guest preacher at the Washington National Cathedral. Recognized by “Newsweek” as one of the nation’s most influential Christian leaders, Dr. Sleeth is the executive director of  Blessed Earth  and  author  of numerous articles and books, including “Reforesting Faith.” He lives in Lexington, Kentucky, with Nancy, his wife of nearly forty years. Their grown children serve with their spouses in full-time parish ministry and as medical missionaries in Africa.

Heidi Wilcox, host of the Thrive Podcast

Writer, podcaster, and social media manager, Heidi Wilcox shares stories of truth, justice, healing and hope. She is best known as the host of Spotlight, (especially her blooper reel) highlighting news, events, culturally relevant topics and stories of the ways alumni, current students and faculty are attempting something big for God. If you can’t find her, she’s probably cheering on her Kentucky Wildcats, enjoying a cup of coffee, reading or spending time with her husband, Wes.

Transcript

Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast. I’m your host, Heidi E. Wilcox, bringing you conversations with authors, thought leaders, and people just like you who are looking to connect to where your passion meets the world’s deep need. Today on the podcast I got to talk to Dr. Matthew Sleeth. Dr. Sleeth is a former ER room physician and chief of the hospital medical staff. He resigned from that position to teach, preach, and write about faith and stewardship issues. Dr. Sleeth is widely sought after speaker and was recognized by Newsweek as one of the nation’s most influential Christian leaders. Dr. Sleeth is the executive director of Blessed Earth and author of numerous articles and books. He and his wife, Nancy, live nearby in Lexington, Kentucky.

Heidi Wilcox:
In today’s conversation, Dr. Sleeth and I talk about his new book, Hope Always, that releases on May 4th. So I’ll link it in the show notes, but go ahead and grab a copy of that so you’ll have it on release day. So in this book Dr. Sleeth shares from the perspective of a physician and minister. He shares his personal and professional experiences with depression and suicide, challenging Christians to be part of the solution. With sound medical principles finding their rightful place beside timeless Biblical wisdom, Hope Always offers the practical and spiritual tools that individuals, families, and churches need to help loved ones who are stressed and struggling.

Heidi Wilcox:
So if you or someone you know is struggling with mental illness and suicide, this conversation offers practical resources and hope. One resource that I want to be sure to mention at the top of the show is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. And that number is 1-800-273-8255 or 800-273-TALK. It provides free and confidential 24/7 support for people in distress, and offers resources for you, your loved ones, and best practices for professionals. So now let’s listen to my conversation with Dr. Sleeth.

Heidi Wilcox:
Dr. Sleeth, I am so glad to get to talk to you today. You’re a return guest on the podcast. And I’m just so very grateful that your team contacted us. I feel like it’s a compliment to the podcast and a compliment to the seminary. So just really grateful to have you back today.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And I am thrilled to be here and I just love working with Asbury Seminary, and have for a decade and a half or so.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I know. So since you’re a returning guest I know that we’ve talked about many things on your first podcast. One thing I realized that we haven’t talked about is how you came to know Jesus. So would you mind sharing that story with us?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I will, and I will give you a somewhat abbreviated version because I was awfully thick headed and I think that God was continually trying to corral me. So there’s many threads that go back. But I will say that my wife and I met when she was 18. I was a carpenter at the time, her parent’s worst nightmare. Really. She was from a Jewish family. We decided to get married. And really had no faith. Our religion was the American dream, live in as nice a house and a good of neighborhood as you can and that sort of thing. And we had two children.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Life was sailing along and what really happened was a series of bad things happened to us, with the first really being her brother drowning on vacation in front of my children.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh no.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And that just had a big effect on my kids. And Nancy got depressed after that. And I think that’s understandable, but it really persisted and she didn’t get treated. And just one after another, things got harder and harder. And I had a patient who stalked me for a period of time, a rather good period of time, and eventually did something very, very scary. And the police checked on him and found that his mother was taped up in a closet where he had beaten her to death some time in the week proceeding when they were there.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh my.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So it was a dangerous person. Marriage got harder. Just everything got harder and harder and harder. And kind of the culmination of things was 9/11. And I got home from work on that morning. We’re living up in Northern Ne England. Perfect blue skies. I’m kind of sleeping on the couch because I’ve worked all night and Nancy came in and said, “Something really bad is happening in New York.” And we tuned in and, as everyone, we’re horrified as things unfolded.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And then my neighbor called who had a son my son’s age; They had grown up together; and said, “I need your help. I need to know how to get him from school and tell him that his father was in the first plane.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh man.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So what really happened in the midst of all that darkness is that I woke up to the idea that there was evil in the world. And my worldview was scientific. Science had given me a career, it had given me a way out of poverty really.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right, because you were a doctor.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah, I was a doctor. Which is the only way that I know of to get on the good side of your in-laws if you’re marrying into a Jewish family, other than go to law school. And I can’t spell very well. Spell check didn’t exist then. Anyways, I woke up to the fact that there was evil, and yet I understood that there was good. And in specific, I think back to those times where someone would come into the hospital unconscious, without even their identification. And if you’re out jogging and you drop down from a heart attack, you’re not carrying your wallet and insurance card. And I would step back and look sometimes and there would be 10 or 15 people working, with hundreds of years of experience, trying to save somebody who they didn’t even know the name of. And that is good work.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
That’s why Jesus opened medical clinics everywhere he went. It’s just good work. And so I went looking for where is the source of that. And I read the Ramayana. I read The Bhagavad Gita. I slogged through most of the Koran. I’m not sure I could say I read the entire thing. And lots of new age things. No answers. Then one day, in the hospital, saw an orange book on a waiting room table. Picked it up. Said Holy Bible on the spine. And I said, “I’ve never read this.” And more importantly we don’t have one at home and we had a library in our house. So I stole it.

Heidi Wilcox:
I love that.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah. So that’s the beginning.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Because I know you, you stopped being a doctor. How did you know that that was the right thing to do?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah, from the moment I met Christ in scripture … By the way, prevenient grace in my life means that my parents named me Matthew and not numbers. So I wouldn’t be here if I was numbers. So I started in the book of Matthew. I met Christ and just immediately felt that he had a different plan for my life. The only way I can describe it is that it must be what birds feel like when they have to migrate. And that was very difficult because there was nowhere to see where I was going. Everything else I had done prior to that was a long education process and training, and knowing where I was going and knowing what that was going to bring me. And instead, it was completely learning how to walk in faith.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Was that transition difficult for you as you went from the lifestyle, I would imagine, of a doctor, to a different kind of life?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah. We moved from a doctor sized house to a house that was exactly the size of our garage.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh my goodness.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Don’t feel sorry for us. We have a doctor sized garage. But it was definitely a change. It was hard on my children. But it’s all turned out okay. And it’s all turned out okay for my family. My wife and my children and their spouses are all on the same page with us.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Did it take a while for your family to-

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
It did. It was probably about two years between when I accepted the reality of Christ to when the last of us did.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So I’ve lived in a home where people believe different things. And I’ve lived in a home where we all believe the same thing. And it’s a lot easier to live in a home where everybody’s on the same page.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. As you … I know for me, I’m not a doctor but some of my identity is wrapped up in what I do. How did you manage that shift?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
That was the hardest thing for me personally, is to give up that identity. To be a doctor, to be an emergency room doctor, to be director of the ER, to be chief of staff at the hospital, I could just go on and on. This is what I do. To I’m following the Lord and trying to be faithful to that.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
That doesn’t cut it in society.

Heidi Wilcox:
And are an author and teacher and speaker.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah, now I wear lots of hats.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Still doing good work in the world, just in a different way.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yes.

Heidi Wilcox:
But your being an author is the main reason why we’re having a conversation today. Your book, Hope Always, releases on May 4th. So I want to encourage our listeners … we’ll link out in the show notes. So be sure to grab a copy of that. Your book walks us through the extent of the suicide problem facing not just our country but the world, what the Bible has to say about suicide, and you also offer some strategies for applying best practices in prevention. Why was now the right time to write Hope Always?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Wow, it’s kind of like that wings itching type of thing. I really felt God pushing me in that direction. I, like everyone else in society, see this more and more and more in the news. I don’t think there’s a day that goes by without some notable person ending their life, and unfortunately now, ending other people’s lives too, because that’s on that continuum. And I thought about it and really didn’t want to write a book on this. I love doing the psychiatric part of emergency medicine. Our hospital that I was in for the longest period of time was both the involuntary and voluntary psychiatric unit for a large area. And so it’s something I dealt with on a day to day basis and felt comfortable working in.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
But I had a new perspective of faith. The time I was a doctor, I was not a person of faith. And yet there’s other books out on this, there’s other people that I thought might be better qualified. Then I typed into a Google search bar one day, what does God think about suicide, because I wanted to see what’s available to the average person going to the place where everybody goes to start these days.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And an article came up by two theologians writing for the Society of Biblical Literature who said that the Bible not only didn’t have any injunctions against suicide, but that Jesus could be considered to have committed suicide. And I will tell you and your listeners that that is … well I’m not allowed to say it, I’m on an Asbury podcast. But I would use a four letter word to describe what nonsense and hogwash that revisionist theology is.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
The church has traditionally had very strong views about suicide, and those are well thought out. And that wasn’t enough. I went and read some of the best selling secular books on it. And then I got the books that are available to Christians. And in the Christian books I found lots of good information. However, basically what I found was a baptism of secular thinking.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So I did something I’ve done with every book that I’ve written, which is to start at Genesis and say, “God, teach me something.” And I thought, what is he going to teach me that isn’t in these other books? And I went a page into the Bible and bang. No one had mentioned Adam and Eve. Not a single Christian book on suicide that I picked up, there may be some out there and I hope there are, but not one of them mentioned that. And yet Adam and Eve were told, “If you do this, you will die.” Not die, you will surely die. There’s no doubt about it. And they did it.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And when we do something that we absolutely know is going to kill ourselves, that’s called suicide. And they didn’t do it alone. They had help. Satan was there pushing. And that’s what really pushed me over the … I got chills, then I realized every single Christian book I’d looked at had overlooked the origin of suicide.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Definitely. In your research, what did you find the extent of the problem of suicide to be?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Suicides are measured in number of suicides per 100,000. And that’s been the typical way that they are measured. And part of the reason they’re measured per 100,000 is it allows you to compare one population to another. It allows you to compare one time to another. And right now the suicide rate is a little over 14 per 100,000. That is the traditionally high rate that was experienced in our country during the aptly named Great Depression. But in the book Hope Always I tease apart those statistics. God seems to use everything out of my past, at some time, to help. And I bizarrely have 11 statistics classes in my background.

Heidi Wilcox:
Wow.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And went to a medical school at which that was a very, very big topic that was discussed, was understanding, deeply, studies of … Studying A Study and Testing a Test was the textbook. And when you dig in just a little bit, you realize that 14 per 100,000 in 1930 versus 14 per 100,000 here in 2021 bear little resemblance to each other. And here’s why.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
In 1930 it was a lot easier to kill yourself. And by that I mean the medical systems just weren’t what they are right now. Today, if somebody is found and they’ve overdosed on something and they’re obtunded, meaning they’re alive but not quite, people activate the 911 system. A mobile hospital comes out with paramedics and EMTs that have more training than physicians had in this in 1930. And they have drugs to administer to reverse things. If they can’t do that, they can bring you to a hospital that has an emergency department with highly trained people who have equipment to breathe for you if you can’t, etc. All of that was missing in 1930.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And so I think a much better measurement is not the number of people who have died by suicide in a year or per 100,000, but the number of people trying to.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh. Yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
If you look at that, over the coming year about 10 million Americans will consider seriously whether or not to end their life. And of that 10 million, 1.5 million will end up in emergency departments being treated. And despite all those miracles that are available today, still during the course of a one hour interview we’re going to lose between five and six people in the United States. And that adds up. It’s about 130-some per day and 2,200 worldwide. So this is significant.

Heidi Wilcox:
It is. It’s very significant. And it doesn’t get talked about a lot. I don’t know if I’ve ever really heard a sermon-

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah, I’m going to put you on the spot. Have you ever heard a sermon about suicide?

Heidi Wilcox:
I don’t think so.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And I know that there are pastors who have preached about it, but I have yet to meet anyone whose told me that they’ve heard a sermon about suicide. And I believe that those who have, generally if they have, they’ve heard what I would call a comfort sermon, and that is a sermon after the fact. But never a proactive sermon on what does the Bible say, is it right or wrong, etc.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Because I do … From what I understand of the Bible … And I’m not a scholar, so I haven’t studied it a lot. I don’t know, does the Bible say anything specific about suicide? Talk to us a little bit about what the Bible does have to say about it.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Sure. Absolutely. So one of the things I do in Hope Always is to go through scripture and look at every time Satan shows up.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And then look at every time somebody says, “I’m at the end of the rope. I want to kill myself,” and they cry out to God. And then I examine a third scenario, and that is … And this is another thing that disturbed me about the Christian books of this, mention of people like Saul or Solomon, and classifying those as a suicide, which I believe shows a profound lack of understanding of history, war, etc. Saul and Solomon are people who are combatants in a war. And the Bible says, “Thous shall not kill.” And yet Christians have gone to war for 2,000 years. There are just war theories, etc. But some of the rules don’t apply.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And to call Saul a suicide is the same as saying the people that jumped off the top of the World Trade Center, because they were going to burn to death and they preferred to go down that way, suicide. And I think that demeans the experience of soldiers throughout time, fire fighter, police, etc, who when they rush into a burning building know that they might die. But their intent is to save others. So I look at all those scenarios.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. As you researched and wrote you talked about what Christians viewed about suicide. We’ve already talked about that a little bit. What did you find is the relationship between faith, mental illness, and suicide?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Well it’s been known that committed Christians commit suicide at about 4-6X less a rate than an atheist. This has been studied scientifically for about 140 years. As far as I know there’s no study worldwide that doesn’t agree with that. And yet, Christians think about suicide as much as non-Christians.

Heidi Wilcox:
Interesting.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And so there’s something about Christianity that keeps people from suiciding at the same rate of atheists. And in Hope Always, what I wanted to do and what I think is different than other Christian books even on the topic is not to know why people committed suicide, there’s hundreds of books on that, but to know why Christians don’t.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And that’s the important thing. Suicide is the one disease in which prevention is the only acceptable treatment. It does not do a whole lot of good to rehash over and over again why people have committed suicide. We want to get out ahead of it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. For sure. Why is hope so important?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Well in talking to folks who had been in the same horrible situations as folks who had committed suicide, and they had thought about it or even tried it but then gotten beyond that, I wanted to find out what are the common elements. Yes, what is it that keeps a lie. And I had help from … I don’t have her permission to use her name. I’m sure she’d say fine, but I would rather ask before.

Heidi Wilcox:
For sure.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
But just this lovely, lovely human being who lives in my hometown of Lexington. And she’s 93 and she went through a period of being suicidal because she had supported her husband through medical school and residency, and then he came home one day and said, “I met somebody younger. And they don’t have three kids like we have. And I’m leaving you.”

Heidi Wilcox:
What a blow.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
What a blow. What a dastardly thing to do. And she became not only depressed but suicidal, and made a plan of how she would do it. And yet she didn’t. So we went through, with her and lots of other people I’ve talked to, why didn’t she.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Why didn’t she?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And there’s a list. Number one, it seemed to be a common number one with people, was fear of what would happen. And what does the Bible say is the beginning of wisdom? Fear of the Lord.

Heidi Wilcox:
Fear. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
To jump into an abyss and not have any idea what is there, one should be scared. We should be scared. So fear. Number two, and this was a common number two, is how it would affect the people she loved. For her, her children.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And we know that suicide is devastating, particularly for children, when the parents commit suicide. We have a wonderful Christian writer who wrote quite a bit about that, which was Frederick Buechner. And I think he was about 11 or 12 when his father committed suicide. It just had a profound effect on his entire life. So that was number two.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And number three was faith. That’s where traditional faith, her community, her church. She found a group within a church that would support her. Four was encouragement. It was before the age of Post-It notes. She actually had to tape up on the mirror and various places throughout the house, scriptures and encouragements to her. And then she began to have an understanding from other people telling her that they had been through this, that she would make it though, that this wouldn’t last forever, that there was hope. And when there’s hope you can power through a lot of stuff.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. I’m thinking about the person, Dr. Sleeth, who really struggles with mental illness, whether it’s depression, anxiety. You’ve talked about a multitude of mental illnesses. And from what I understand about it … I could be wrong, so please correct me. But from what I understand, sometimes in those situations it is so big and you feel like you don’t have a choice. There’s nothing left.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Right. Or that everyone would be better off if you did this. And that’s where the support of the church really comes in. If you think about it, if somebody came into a church today and said, “I have cancer,” that might be announced right from the pulpit. You might provide rides to doctors, meals are going to come around if you need them. In a good church somebody’s going to write you a check, because there’s always extra bills to be paid. And yet there’s not a single case of cancer in scripture. That, by the way, is not the wrong way to treat cancer. That’s the absolute right way. But conversely, if somebody got a new diagnosis of bipolar disease or schizophrenia or unipolar depression, that would probably … nothing would be said about it. So those people feel isolated from the one community that’s best able to support them.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right. And I was reading another book, that isolation removes us from our shared humanity and can make us feel unworthy and so very alone.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And God built us to be in community, and nothing shows that more than the last year that we’ve been through.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
People suffer when they are not in community. We are communal creatures, if you will.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And so a large prayer of mine for this book is that it gives the church, the theologic and the practical tools to engage with this.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned that, because as Christians we are called to pursue life in all areas.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
We are. I’m reaching for a Bible here. I’m going to give you two Bible verses for all the work I’m doing in this, if you don’t mind.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, for sure. Please.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And the first is Jesus giving us the bottom, bottom, bottom line on suicide. Because suicide is something that is unique to human beings. It does not exist in the animal kingdom. Scientists cannot find an animal model to study it. No zebra has ever woken up and said, “To heck with it. I’m not going to run from the lion today.” It is a distinctly human experience and problem.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And Christ gives us the triple bottom line on the whole situation. John 10:10, “The thief comes only to steal and to kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.” So I kind of think that’s where everything’s coming for. And I’m going to give you one more verse, if you don’t mind.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, please.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So we know where suicide comes from. We know from scripture every time Satan shows up, practically, he’s trying to get somebody to kill themselves. Even when he meets Christ he’s trying to get him to jump.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And then the question is, well what responsibility do we have as individuals or collectively as a church? And Asbury grad of your M.Div. program and I were discussing how do you preach on this.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. How do you? Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And he said, “I’ve got a scripture for you.” Okay. And he said it’s Proverbs 24, verses 11 and 12. Asbury grad, my son-in-law. Okay. And this is what it says, “Rescue those that are being taken away to death. Hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say behold, we do not know this, does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it? And will he not repay man according to his work?” There’s no wiggle room in there.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
We are our brother’s and sister’s keeper.

Heidi Wilcox:
We are. So how can we be helpers to people who are struggling with mental illness, suicidal ideation? What can we do to pursue life?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Absolutely. Great question. I believe that knowledge empowers us in this. And that’s one of the reasons I wrote this book, is so that somebody has a firm theologic footing, they know what they’re battling and everything. And this is always, to some extent, a spiritual battle, even though they are very physiologic components to it and everything. And then I wanted people to have some real practical tools.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So I’m going to walk you through the worst case scenario.

Heidi Wilcox:
Please. Because that’s what we want. We want to help. We want to help people.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I’m, by training, an ER doc. So we always go to the worst case scenario.

Heidi Wilcox:
Right.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
The first thing is, you’ve got to ask. And there is a reluctance to ask even a close friend about their thoughts about suicide. And part of that is a concern that it might increase the chance or put it into the person’s head. I promise you, if your loved one or friend is going through a really tough time it has already crossed their mind. And this has been studied again and again and again. You will not increase the rate of suicide in somebody by asking them about it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
That was just drilled into us in medical school. You’re not going to do harm here. Because we’re taught first do no harm.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
As a matter of fact, people perceive it as you caring.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh, yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So in the book I give people a sentence or two that they can use as a script. You don’t have to be original here. And what I would always ask people is, have you been thinking about harming yourself or hurting yourself? And people are generally relieved that you’ve asked that if they have been thinking about it, because they’re isolated alone with that thought until they articulate it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And so if they answer to that question is yes, you have to ask … The second question is, do you have a plan? Have you thought about how you would do that? If they have a plan, then you have to ask means. So if, “Yes I’ve been thinking about killing myself. I would do it with a pistol,” let’s say, “And I own a pistol.” You now have an emergency on your hands. That’s why God invented 911.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay, so that is the next step then.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah, that’s the next step. They’ve got to go to an ER.

Heidi Wilcox:
What do you do if they don’t want to?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
That is a great question. I believe that in some instances you just have to go ahead and dial 911. You tell them you’re doing that. I think that most people want to be stopped. And it’s not just what I think, that’s what studies show. Most people want to be stopped. And there might be a hesitancy. And the other thing that goes along with that is never agree to keep somebody’s plans of suicide secret. This is the one time that the Bible tells us we can lie. Where is that in the Bible? We have the medical experience of, I believe it’s Shiphrah and Puah.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yes, the two midwives in Egypt who lie to the Pharaoh to save lives. And what does the Lord do? He rewards them. And actually if you look at the meaning of their name, which I remember but not the transliterations, the meanings of their names are splendid and beautiful. That’s what the Lord thinks of people who lie to save lives.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So never keep somebody’s suicide secret. If they absolutely refuse, don’t put yourself in danger. But then I would recruit others to help, would be the next step.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And police departments and rescue squads and emergency rooms are used to dealing with people who can be difficult, because they’re in the worst scenario.

Heidi Wilcox:
They’re in pain.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yeah, a place they can be. And that’s why the law allows, in all states, for a physician to involuntarily commit somebody. And people do get to the emergency department and stall out and can’t sign themselves in. And that’s why I would involuntarily commit them. And do you know what, I never had a single person come back and say, “I’m mad at you because you put me in the hospital.” But I have had people come back and say, “You saved my life.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. How do we know either when we’re listening and thinking about our own struggles internally and know that this is something that we’re dealing with right now? Or we have a friend, a loved one. How do we know when it’s time to reach out for help? What are some of the signs of that?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Well I think that a depression that’s lasted for a couple of weeks. Let’s say, for instance, you lose a parent or something. Bible tells us how it’s not a life celebration we go to, it’s a funeral. Okay. And the Bible tells us Jesus wept. And particularly in Judaism there’s very good mechanisms of grieving, which I believe we’re missing in the Christian world sometimes. But if something persists beyond a couple of weeks, and I go through all the symptoms of depression here and kind of have a screening pneumonic, then it’s time to talk to somebody.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
If you’re depressed and not thinking about suicide, and you might have some idea what’s wrong, I think that it’s good to ask spiritual questions, am I depressed because I’ve done something that I know is inconsistent with my faith? Is the Lord trying to tell me to move on or two grow wings and get out of Err or whatever? And to ask those kind of questions. And some churches have counselors there. The seminary trains counselors for this. I don’t think you have to jump immediately to medicines. But medicines can be helpful in getting out of this.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So a primary care doctor would probably be the place to start, as far as medications go.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. And you mentioned counseling. I do want to mention we did a podcast about counseling with our counseling faculty. So if you’re interested in that, we’ll link that in the show notes too. We talked through some how to know when counseling is a good step for you, how to find a counselor, things like that. So we’ll link that in the show-

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I got to hit on that link and listen. That sounds great.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
The other thing that is available to people is 1-800-273-TALK.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And that’s the National Suicide Hotline. And they keep resources for your area. So anyone anywhere in the country can call and they have an idea what’s available as far as help in your area. And I think that that is a great number for every Christian to put in their phone. If you’re talking to somebody and they’re thinking about this, that shows you care if you, “Hey, let me share a contact with you in case things ever get really bad.”

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Is it a number that if you’re with somebody you can call to know how to help them, if you get stuck?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I don’t believe that that’s the typical call that they get.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. I just wanted to know to help better equip people. We will link that number as well, because this podcast, this conversation is all about giving people the resources that they need to choose life.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Yes. And so thanks to my lovely wife, my better three quarters, the last portion of Hope Always is one practical thing after another. It’s a tool kit of … multiple resources available, books to recommend, movies to watch, songs to listen to. It’s just chock full of practical stuff, because that’s my wife and not me.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. To turn our eyes to hope.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Right.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. How can pastors … Because we talked about the church, so I want to go here for a minute. How can pastors prepare themselves and those in their congregation to offer help and life to people?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I think they’ve got to start talking about this from the pulpit. This is a problem that’s just enormous. And I think you have to discuss it from the pulpit. You can do a Biblical survey. They can use this book and get right to a sermon really fairly quickly. There is, by the way, a chapter just for pastors in this book. And they don’t have to be professionals at this. But I think it’s good that you have in your Rolodex … I know those are all virtual these days … a list of resources, counselors in the area, books to recommend, things like the book Telling Yourself the Truth, things like that that they can help and not just blow it off.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And if you don’t give any sermon on it, you’ve given a sermon.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
You’ve said this is not appropriate for church to talk about. And that’s just not the case. And for those pastors that struggle with depression themselves, know that you are in great company. I talk quite a bit about Charles Spurgeon in this book, who suffered bouts of depression that went on and on. And we know people like Mother Theresa suffered with depression throughout many decades of her life, and yet look at the fruit, look at the legacy of Spurgeon and Mother Theresa.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. I’m guessing there’s not research on 2020 and how mental illness increased potentially, or suicide rates increased. But I would imagine there may be a spike. You can speak into that better than I can.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
The most recent statistics appear that there was actually, in suicides, there was a tiny, tiny, minuscule drop. So I’m not sure that that’s statistically. But more than overshadowed by an increased number of overdose deaths.

Heidi Wilcox:
Oh.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And I believe there’s definitely a connection between overdose deaths and suicide. I believe that it shows kind of a culture of despair and an ambivalence towards life. And if you don’t mind, I’m going to explain what people are playing with out there in the drug world these days.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Drugs have gotten very, very dangerous because we have synthetic narcotics now. Fentanyl is 50 times more potent than heroin. And there’s so many fentanyl overdoses. But carfentanil is 10,000 times more potent than heroin. And if you are taking anything today that didn’t come from a pharmacist and has a pharmacy label on it, you are rolling the dice. It is just like playing Russian roulette with a pistol.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Definitely it is. So, Dr. Sleeth, we’ve talked about a lot of bad, but hope mixed in. So how can we find hope in the middle of all of this? What would you tell us?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I think that hope begins with children, by instilling in them, and understanding as adults, that we are not an accident of the universe, that we are the creation of a loving God who loves us so much that he would come and die for us. And that any suffering that we are going through, God understands. He’s a man of sorrow. Jesus was acquainted with grief. It doesn’t mean that you’re any less of a Christian that you’re going through one of these periods, but that you will come out of this.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
And in our life, we live, as the Bible says, three score and ten. And if you’re lucky throw another score on. But that’s the beginning of eternity. And so I think changing the mindset that we are created by a loving God, we’re here for a purpose, and this is the beginning of eternity, and that we shouldn’t end it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes. Definitely. I have one question that I like to ask everybody who comes on the show. But before I ask that, is there anything else you’d like to say that we haven’t already talked about?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Just the thankfulness for this institution. I’ve gotten to speak at hundreds of churches and seminaries, but Asbury has been very special and helpful to me.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I don’t fit into any particular slot. I’m a square peg in round holes. But somehow Asbury has always found a way to make me a part of this community, and I’m deeply grateful for it.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Well we’re so grateful to have you. And I believe you’re speaking in chapel later this month. So your podcast will come out before your chapel message. April 29th, is that right?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
I believe it’s April 29th, but I was asked to speak on something other than this.

Heidi Wilcox:
Okay. Well they’ll still get to hear you.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Don’t want to disappoint you if you come to chapel.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. Any message from you would be well worth attending. So for our question. Because the show is called The Thrive With Asbury Seminary podcast, what is one practice that is helping you thrive in your life right now?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
It is a practice that I took up at the very beginning of my walk with the Lord, and our family has, and that’s Sabbath. For me, Sabbath … And I talk about Sabbath in Hope Always, because I think it’s just part of the hygiene, good hygiene of being a Christian. I know that no matter how bad things are, I am only six days away from my favorite day of the week.

Heidi Wilcox:
Ah, yes. Yes. What does Sabbath look like for you?

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
In non-pandemic times?

Heidi Wilcox:
Yes.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Well, if I’m not traveling and speaking in some place, it’s a day where we … the one thing we do not do is engage in work or commerce.

Heidi Wilcox:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
So we get about 100 emails, at least, a day. So my wife doesn’t open that computer up, she does not look at the email program. We don’t engage in buying or selling. The definition of work has changed over the centuries, but commerce remains the same. And of all days, I try to focus on putting into me what passes through the Philippians 4:8 filter, and those are the things that are good and true and pure and that you want to talk about because they’re edifying and they reflect the Lord.

Heidi Wilcox:
Yeah. For sure. I believe that was our last podcast conversation, more about Sabbath. So if you want to hear more about that, we’ll link that in the show notes as well, because Dr. Sleeth had some really good things to say when we had an hour to talk about it. So Dr. Sleeth, this conversation has just been such a delight. Thank you for taking the time to talk to all of us about that, and just for the work and the gift that your book is to the world. Thank you.

Dr. Matthew Sleeth:
Thank you.

Heidi Wilcox:
Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining me for today’s conversation with Dr. Matthew Sleeth. Just so grateful for his time, his research, and the gift that that is to each of us. Like he said, I want to go ahead and encourage you to put the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number into your phone. It’s 800-273-8255. That’s 800-273-TALK. He offered us a variety of resources to help others, but this is one of the easiest that we can just have at the ready to help ourselves and others pursue life. Thank you all so much for listening today. Just very grateful for you guys as well. And as always, you can follow us in all the places, on FaceBook, Twitter, and Instagram at @asburyseminary. Until next time, I hope you’ll go do something that helps you thrive.